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Old 05-25-2009, 03:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default What is the best way to knock out a cat?

I'm an american living in the philippines... I always was a cat lover but never intended on getting a cat while I was here.. But I'm too much of a sucker for that.. I ended up rescuing some cats mostly from the sewer system after someone threw them in there (they were only 1-2 days old, had to hand feed them, etc, etc).. A bunch of long story's short... I'm now up to 3 females and 3 males!

Due to the lack of knowledge from local vets, i've been doing a lot of things myself that most wouldn't. One of these is finding the best anesthetic for surgery.

My eldest male (the first one I got) was a nightmare to get fixed. The vet did it in my house, in my kitchen (he didn't have an office), used a razor blade (like you would shave your face with) and only wanted to use a local anesthetic while keeping the cat restrained in this contraption he made out of a wrapped piece of tin... I could've knocked the guy on his ass, and probably should have.. I didn't let him use his contraption, but the procedure lasted 2 hours (from start to finish). I ended up paying for a bottle of ketamine (the only thing i knew by name), cooked the mixture into a powder and blew it into the cats nose for direct path into the blood stream. It did the trick long enough for the procedure to be complete.. I didn't want to use an injection of ketamine because of how skinny he was at the time, the doctor didn't know how to inject without penetrating the muscle (extremely painful if any of you have ever had a shot into a muscle or had a doctor knick a bone with a needle)..

I'm pretty well versed in a wide variety of subjects, I was able to sterilize the room sufficiently that there was no issue with possible infection post surgery. He ended up doing just fine in the following days. And is now happily running around (just got done playing with my shoe laces!)

I don't want to go through that EVER again.

I have 2 more cats to get fixed (that ive kept seperated from the females). At this point, i'm thinking about splurging on a tank of nitrous oxide (as thats one of the only other things I know by name) to completely knock them out for surgery. I just don't know what to do...

What I'm buying for the vet to use this time...

1) Scalpel
2) Real medical grade sutures
3) Anastethic

Any recommendations, comments, or anything would be most appreciated. As i'd rather cut off my own leg than go through that again.

If maybe some of you fellow cat owners could look on your old vet bills to see if there is a listing of what the vet charged you for as an anesthetic during the procedure, i would love to know.

And as a little advice to people on this forum, if you ever decide to move to the third world.... Don't get any animals, i don't care how helpless they look. Theres no way that you can save them all, because they reproduce faster than you can save them. The people here have no value for life of any kind (even their own), and wont get their animals fixed to prevent the overpopulation problem. Their solution is to throw the babies away.....
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

OMG what an awful story and a great warning to people to "gird" themselves to the horrors of reality in 3rd world countries in regards to how they treat the animals under their care.

I will wish you luck in being able to find the information and resources you seek. I have no clue how you would be able to go about doing that, only because the only info I have on my end is in the US it is illegal to do what you are proposing to do...so I'm afraid not many will have the info you need. I do know that one of my male cats was neutered on my kitchen table when I had the vet out for all of the animals (horses, dog and cats) and the entire feline neutering procedure lasted all of 10-15min, with most of that time being taken up with waiting for the shot to fully take effect. I cannot imagine how inept this man was who took 2 hours to do the very same procedure.

Best of luck to you and the animals you are trying to care for. You may want to give Carol's Clan a PM, as she lives in S Africa but is very far from veterinary care and she has learned (through her vet and with her vet's blessing) how to do many things herself.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

Yes, it's quite awful. There are some people here who take care of their pets in a somewhat acceptable manner, but nothing to my standards. Everyone in the neighborhood is amazed that my dog responds to verbal commands. Then they always ask "is the dog imported?" (they assume the dog must be from another planet or something since hes 'intelligent'). And I answer "No, it's a local dog. I just treat him properly."

The actual procedure only took like 15minutes as you said, but the whole 'ordeal' was about 2 hours. (From the time the vet arrived until he left). They're used to performing these sorts of operations on pigs, cows, and an occasional dog, but never a cat. I think it was the first time this vet had ever worked on a cat. I ended up holding the cat down and talking to him during the operation, he wasn't happy, but he survived. I think the vet was more shocked than the cat. It seemed to me, he expected the cat to rip my face off when he started working. (i had my face close to the cat during the operation).

I was planning on having him do it again, but supply him with the proper materials to do the job right this time. I just want them to be 'knocked out' during the whole thing this time. From reading online, i think ketamine was a bad choice since it actually increases the heart rate/blood pressure. I wouldn't be against doing it myself, but the closest i've ever come to stitching anything up was in home economics class in 6th grade when the teacher had us make a pillow. So I really wouldn't want to risk it.

Thanks for your advice, i'll send carol a PM and see if she can give any information.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

Wow. The best advice I can give you is to try to find a competant vet. Is that the only one in your area?

Do not waste your money on nitrous oxide. It doesn't work as well in animals as it does in people. Plus you really have to know what you are doing when you use it. Do not dry the ketamine again. You may end up inhaling some.

The best anesthesia is a preop with a good analgesic (like a narcotic or narcotic type drug)and a sedative then an induction drug and maintenance on gas. If you can get ketamine, I imagine you can get other drugs and they must not worry too much about controlled drugs. If you can get buprenorphine or butorphanol, and ketamine and dexdomitor it would help. It certainly won't be optimal but it would be better than what you are doing.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

Yes, there is a city that I could go to, in order to get more 'americanish' treatment, however it's about 4-5 hours away (one way). I think the transport would traumatize my guys more than the operation itself.

I had 'experiences' with ketamine in college. (Theres a time and a place for everything right?). Which is why I knew its name, and its typical use.

That was my concern with the nitrous.. I would also have to buy an oxygen tank with necessary regulators to make sure a proper N2O/O2 mixture is maintained.. From what I read though, its easier to overdose on caffeine than it is on nitrous, which is another reason I was thinking that may be the route to go..

The one good thing about being in the third world, you can get pretty much anything you want for a price.

Is there anything you're aware of that I could give to them in their food that would.. Just make them go to sleep for an hour or so? I would prefer it they don't even know anything happened.. I can get pretty much anything, I just have to get it shipped in from manila.. The problem is I don't know what to get, and the vet is absolutely useless in this regard..

I forgot to mention, I have called vets inside the US, but no one is willing to give any advice at all for fear of being 'liable' for anything that may happen to my pets. (Even vets that I've used in the US before) So i'm at a loss for sources of information.

Quote:
If you can get buprenorphine or butorphanol, and ketamine and dexdomitor it would help. It certainly won't be optimal but it would be better than what you are doing.
Would it not be bad to mix an opiate class substance with ketamine, since ketamine increases the heart rate/blood pressure and the opiate has an opposite effect? I've never had a blood work up done on any of my cats, so there may be conditions which I'm not aware of. To be able to spit off the name of the chemical compounds like that, I assume you've done this sort of thing before?
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

ketamine is very commonly used for cats, though its generally mixed with diazepam (valium). neutering is really a very simple procedure and most cats don't actually need to be sutured. the testicles are tied off on themselves and the incision is so small it heals up fine without being closed.

Also, I would really advise against the cooking of ketamine and blowing it in the cats face. More information here:

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/ke ... page1.aspx

Intramuscular injection would probably be easiest in this situation - its really not all bad. And in all honesty, when all is said and done I think the kitty will miss his testicles a little more than worrying about a sore butt

have you looked here?

http://www.vetworld.com/vetworld/philippines.html

if anything, its a starting point and they might be able to direct you to someone who can help you out close to your home. I also have to assume its just the males that are being neutered at this point? Any plans for the females?
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

The way that they do it here is to cut the testies completely off and remove them from the cat (or dog/pig/etc). The way you're speaking of is called the 'american way' (by leaving them inside, but nonfunctional). In order to remove them completely, a larger incision has to be made (obviously). I chose the first time not to do it the 'american way', the vet had no experience with it. I was concerned that it might possibly go gangrene and kill him

edit: I think i misread what you were saying, he did tie a string around the inner sack to stop blood loss before removing them, but there was a large amount of blood dropplets every which way on the floor as he walked around. I was quite concerned that he wasn't going to make it for the first day or so.

Yes, I would definitely prefer not to go with the ketamine again like I did before. (Or at least not blowing it in his face/nasal cavity)

Just the other day, one of the aussies here told me about his son who got fixed and they screwed up... and he's a person! (that was also in australia which is considered first world)..

The closest location that I know I could get it done properly is in cebu city which is the 5-6 hour drive i was dreading. Once you leave the city here in the philippines it becomes no mans land. You won't be able to get even the most basic services. They cant even maintain running water or electricity properly. (let alone internet which goes out at least once an hour). I cant even find clothes or shoes that arent used!! Anyone who would do things the "right way" is in the city

Yes, it is only my males being fixed, I really dont want to risk the females as they have to actually cut the skin and expose all sorts of organs. Though, reading another post i just found out that females spray too! Which means, if mine start spraying i'll have to get them fixed as well.

I miss civilization, and baby back ribs with giant american potatoes ... mmmmmm...
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:24 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

Hmmm. Two summers ago I had a feral cat collapse on my back patio. I took him in and tried to help him. The vet exam didn't reveal anything very useful, other than he DID NOT like to be RESTRAINED and reverted to completely feral. They gave him a shot that imobilized him and we were able to exam and I was also able to groom the knots out of his fur. After 6 weeks of great food, care and love, he was responding to the love...but he was still losing weight, and he was already a skeleton. Literally. So I made the decision to euth him, but knowing how terrible he was at the last exam I asked for something to make him more handle-able. They gave me a pill that would do something similar to the shot, but it didn't completely imobilize him. At the euth, he struggled (feral) and we had to put the towel over his head. It wasn't the calm and quiet passing I had hoped for, for him, but I know I tried and he was loved while he was with me.
I do not remember the name of the pill, but I'm sure you could describe what the pill *did* and a vet could tell you what it was.


I wanted to add, I'm not a vet or a tech, but I'm pretty sure with animals, if they are neutered...the testicles ARE removed and are never left with/in the animal. It is only in human men the testicles remain and the vas deferens is snipped or tied off. I remember the vet cut an incision in the lower part of the scrotum, to allow for good drainage if necessary. If the cut her higher, it could trap any fluid that needed to drain and cause an infection. Anyhow, he made a shallow incision and then squeezed at the base of the scrotum and popped the testicles out. I didn't watch any further (I turned my head) so I don't know if he cut them, squeezed them with forceps to crush the connections/vessels and then cut them or just pulled them out.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

After reading online, im at even more of a loss. There are so many analgesics and mixtures of them for general anesthesia in cats... I read one site that said sodium pentathol was effective... That made me laugh.. I really need to find a vet that is willing to talk to me...

A pill to start sounds great, sedate them then use something else to put them under completely. It's pretty hard to screw up dosage with a singular pill for each cat.

buprenorphine and dexdomitor sound pretty good as well (perhaps to be used after the pill).

I'm going to ask the question over at http://www.justanswer.com/pet and see what they have to say.

Since my 2 males are already spraying (one of them sprayed my computer and destroyed a hard drive! *Sigh*) im dying to get this done asap.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is the best way to knock out a cat?

The best way to knock out a cat?

I told Cinderella I had a date and she fell to the floor in a dead faint.

Wait.......that won't help you.

I hope you find a good solution. I think it's wonderful that you're caring for all these cats.
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