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Old 04-15-2006, 08:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default blood in female cats urine??

Ok, now we have solved the whole puking up food thing by feeding her wet food and her hard food on a dinner plate all spread up, I am ready for my next question.

She keeps getting a re-occuring urinary infection where she will go pee and there will be blood in it, then she will get out of the litter box and a piece of bloody jelly will fall to the ground. she will also not use the litter box as she has to urinate frequently

I have her on clavamox right now, 1 morn, 1 night and she will be going to the vet AGAIN on monday. We will have to leave her over night to get a urine sample as she would rather use my carpet than go in a strange litter box.

My husband is ready to "take her out back" as she is peeing on the carpet in the corners of my house and we have a fairly new house. Any ideas on what it could be??

I am not so sure it is crystals as she is on royal canin preventative for crystals as my male cat had them...I am at the end of my rope with her...she is sitting beside my on the floor right now and has not stopped licking herself for about 15 min....
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Ok, now we have solved the whole puking up food thing by feeding her wet food and her hard food on a dinner plate all spread up, I am ready for my next question.

She keeps getting a re-occuring urinary infection where she will go pee and there will be blood in it, then she will get out of the litter box and a piece of bloody jelly will fall to the ground. she will also not use the litter box as she has to urinate frequently
The number one MOST important thing that you have to do now: STOP feeding dry food.
NO dry food for a cat that is having problems with recurring urinary tract infections.

The other important thing to watch out for: the canned food you feed has to cause a mildly and naturally acidic urine (which is the normal urine for cats) to keep bacteria from settling in the bladder and multiplying, leading to bacterial infections.
So avoid foods that have lots of grains and vegetables in the formula because these have an alkalizing effect on the body.
Also, the food you feed should always be low in carbohydrates.

You don't need any kind of special food to prevent urinary problems, including bacterial infections, struvites or oxalates, you just need good, species appropriate food that produces the right pH and other conditions for cats and the body takes care of the rest.

Here is some important information for you:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?a ... w&item=017

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/magnesium.php

From an article by Dr. Jean (Jean Hofve DVM) - this is extremely important information!

Dry food produces more concentrated urine, thus setting up conditions where problems may more easily develop. High-fiber dry foods may be even worse, because they cause water to be excreted in the feces instead of the urine. It is very important to get affected cats to consume more water, and the easiest way to do this is by feeding wet food.

Holistic veterinarians believe that LUTD is virtually always a sign of chronic underlying disease. Cats seem to have a species "weak point" in the urinary system, and this is where many cats manifest symptoms that may have their origin in genetics, vaccination, suppression of prior diseases or other energetic imbalances. Therefore, homeopathy, acupuncture, Chinese herbs, western herbs and other holistic therapies may be valuable in rectifying the hidden causes of LUTD and bringing your cat's health into balance and well-being.

Lots of diets and treatments are out there. An individually tailored treatment program will best serve each patient. But, if I had only one rule I could make for all of them, it would be: No dry food.


From the Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats by Shawn Messonnier DVM:

"The same diet recommended for controlling struvite bladder stones is recommended for cats with FLUTD. If processed foods must be fed, most holistic veterinarians prefer canned diets (which contain large amounts of water) rather than dry foods.

Dietary therapy is a useful adjunct (and possibly preventive measure) for cats with struvite crystals and stones. Since the struvite stones most commonly form in alkaline urine (urine with a high pH) when the urine is saturated with magnesium, ammonium, or phosphate, diets should help maintain an acidic urine (low pH) as much as possible. Diets with animal-based protein sources are most important in maintaining an acidic pH (vegetarian or cereal-based diets are more likely to cause an alkaline urine).

In cats, struvite crystals and stones most commonly form in the absence of a bladder infection (unlike the situation in dogs, in which a bladder infection is usually the initiating factor in causing the formation of stones). Unless a secondary infection is present, large amounts of urinary bleeding are encountered, or surgery is performed for stone removal, antibiotic therapy is usually not needed in cats with struvite bladder stones.

Crystals, stones, and the condition called feline lower urinary tract disease (FLUTD), most commonly form in cats (which are true carnivores adapted to eating meat-based diets) fed dry commercial foods (which are usually high in vegetable materials and grains). Most holistic veterinarians see a lower incidence of these urinary disorders in cats fed meat-based (homemade) diets.

Diets designed for cats with struvite crystals or bladder stones are designed to produce an acid urine (pH lasting 4 to 6 hours after feeding), which allows for crystals and stones to be dissolved. While some commercial foods have decreased levels of magnesium and phosphorus, it has recently been shown that these minerals only contribute to stone formation if the urine is alkaline. If the urine can be maintained with an acidic pH, the dietary concentrations of magnesium and phosphorus do not need to lowered below recommended daily amounts. In fact, reducing the magnesium levels in cat food can cause increased excretion of calcium from the kidneys, leading to the formation of calcium oxalate stones in the bladder. In fact, the increased incidence of calcium oxalate stones in cats and dogs has coincided with an increased use of commercial "stone" diets containing reduced magnesium and phosphorus (often labeled under the term "ash"). Feeding recommended levels of phosphate to normal cats does not promote stone formation. Phosphate is needed to allow the urine to maintain an acid pH, which helps discourage crystal and stone formation. To increase urination (which reduces the amount of time crystals can form and remain in the bladder), extra salt (sodium chloride) can be added to the diet.

While urinary acidifiers can be useful, some doctors discourage their use as the exact dosage that is safe and effective is often not known. If urinary acidifiers are used for short-term acidification, a natural therapy such as cranberry extract might be preferred to conventional medications (such as methionine)."

General information about pH balance:

Acid-base balance

Acidity and alkalinity are measured according to the pH (potential of hydrogen) scale.

Acid-base balance, the balance between the amount of carbonic acid and bicarbonate base in the blood, which must be maintained at a constant ratio of 1 to 20 to ensure that the pH of the blood is kept between 7.35 and 7.45. In a healthy person, the blood is maintained within this narrow range of alkalinity. This pH value depends upon two mechanisms: the rate of excretion of carbonic acid (i.e. aqueous carbon dioxide) through the lungs in the expired air; and the ability of the kidneys to excrete either acid or alkaline urine. When the lungs and kidneys are diseased, these mechanisms may no longer function efficiently and an acidosis (excess acid) or alkalosis (excess alkali or base) results.

Both dietary aspects and metabolic defects influence the acidity or alkalinity of the body and hence that of the urine.

For example, a rabbit has a diet consisting mainly of green and other vegetables and normally excretes an alkaline urine.
A dog, which is carnivorous or omnivorous, excretes an acid urine.

Cats are obligate carnivores and on the correct diet they excrete an acid urine.

Omnivorous human beings excrete a slightly acid urine, and large meat eaters excrete a more acid urine. This is due to the fact that protein is high in sulfur, which the body converts to sulfuric acid before excretion in the urine. The high phosphorus content of meat ends up as phosphoric acid, which also contributes to the acidity of the urine.

Dietary acids and organic acids present in fruits, vegetables and yogurt do NOT produce acid reactions within the body. They are in fact alkaline-forming.

Oxalic acid (from strawberries, spinach, rhubarb and other sources) can combine with calcium to form insoluble calcium oxalate so it is not absorbed. Excess oxalic acid can immobilize calcium and other minerals to an extent that may cause mild deficiency.

Water, with a pH of 7.0, is considered neutral – neither acid nor alkaline.

Any substance with a pH above 7.0 is alkaline.

The ideal (urine) pH range for the human body is between 6.0 and 6.8 (the human body is naturally mildly acidic). Values above pH 6.8 are considered to be on the alkaline side, values below pH 6.3 are on the acidic side.

Alkalosis (when the body is too alkaline) causes calcium to build up in the body.

The right pH for cats:

For cats the right (urine) pH is between 6.0 and 6.3 or between 6.2 and 6.5 Different experts will give you a slightly different range. Some will go as high as 6.8
Anything below 6.0 is too acid, and above 6.5 too alkaline to be safe and to protect from urinary problems such as bacterial infections, struvites, and oxalates.

Since food very much affects the body’s pH balance, here is a look at different foods.

Acid-Forming Foods

Important for cats:
Meat
Fish
Poultry
Eggs
Organ meats

Important for humans (partial list):
Cranberries
Coffee
Cocoa (NOT the alkalized kind!)
Asparagus
Legumes
Mustard
Vinegar
Peanuts

Alkaline-Forming Foods

Important for cats:
Soy products
Corn and other grains
Fresh vegetables
Fruits
(In some cat foods you can find vegetables and blueberries. These foods have been associated with UTIs and struvites in cats.)

Important for humans:
Fresh and dried fruits
All citrus fruits
Pineapple
Honey
Maple syrup
Almonds
Chestnuts
Soured milk products

When you choose cat food, one of the most important considerations should always be: will it produce a gently and NATURALLY acidified urine(Without the need for extra acidifiers.)

Important information about kidney and bladder stones from James F. Balch, MD:

"Kidney and bladder stones, which are accumulations of mineral salts that can lodge anywhere along the course of the urinary tract.

Human urine is often saturated to the limit with uric acid, phosphates, and calcium oxalate. Normally, due to the secretion of various protective compounds and natural mechanisms that control the pH of urine, these substances remain suspended in solution. However, if the protective compounds are overwhelmed or immunity becomes depressed, the substances may crystallize and the crystals may begin to clump together, eventually forming stones large enough to restrict urinary flow.

About 80 percent of all stones are calcium stones. High blood calcium levels lead to hypercalcuria – excessive absorption of calcium from the intestine, – which increases the level of calcium in the urine. This excess calcium eventually forms a stone. High blood calcium levels can also result from malfunctioning parathyroid glands, vitamin D intoxication, and multiple myeloma. The consumption of refined carbohydrates, especially sugar, can help precipitate kidney stones as well, because the sugar stimulates the pancreas to release insulin, which in turn causes extra calcium to be excreted in the urine, Mild chronic or recurrent dehydration can also be a factor in kidney stones; it concentrates the urine, increasing the likelihood of stone formation.”


Please watch for the important word dehydration and think of dehydration in relation to dry cat food.

Also keep the above information “The consumption of refined carbohydrates, especially sugar, can help precipitate kidney stones as well, because the sugar stimulates the pancreas to release insulin, which in turn causes extra calcium to be excreted in the urine”, in mind.

In the cat’s diet “carbohydrates” means grains and vegetables.

Carbohydrates are important (in a bad, undesirable way) for many different reasons. Among other things there is a definite connection between carbs and diabetes. And now we see how they can contribute to stone formation as well. (This is especially important for cats who develop oxalates on a dry food diet.)

Article:
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/grains.php

From one of Dr. Jean's posts:
Link: http://catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3047

Quote:
Cats eating canned food consume twice as much water in a day as cats eating dry food who also drink water. This is important for the kidneys and helps prevent crystals and stones from forming because the urine is too dilute.
From another post:
Link: http://catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4733

Quote:
Veggies are carbs, and particularly on top of a dry diet, can really alkalinize a cat and set it up for urinary tract problems as well as obesity and the other hazards of a high-carb diet. Carrots, corn and peas are high in sugar; potatoes are pure starch.

Not all cats are prone to bladder problems, and this one may handle veggies fine, but they're not good for the general cat population.

Cheers,
Dr. Jean
If you have any questions about any of this, don't hesitate to ask.
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Old 04-16-2006, 04:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Another option is to give your cat BARF....it requires that you do some studies about nutritional requirements...but I think it's worth it.

I hope you cat get well.
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Old 04-16-2006, 09:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I just want to put in a note to explain why I had to edit my post.
This: "Different experts will give you a slightly different range. Some will go as high as 6.8" was supposed to be between parenthesis. But look what happens when it is:
(Different experts will give you a slightly different range. Some will go as high as 6.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that emoticon. To make matters worse, when I reread my post last night, it went right by me. Yikes!!!
Thank God for a chance to edit!

Lissan,

you are right, a raw diet would definitely be another option. BUT, it would have to be very, very carefully balanced because cats can and do get urinary problems even on a raw diet. With such cats the help of a holistic vet or homeopath can be invaluable.
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default blood

I dont think a raw diet is an option..I dont have enough time to do that. So from the post, try and get as much meat as possible, stop feeding dry food, get the teeth cleaned (they arent that bad, but will do anyways) and no veggies or carbs???? I think I have it....

Now to find the right wet cat food......I had some posted for me on my last topic but I dont recognize any of the names of the foods...I live in canada, any ideas? I will also go back to that post and write them down to see if they can be ordered???

Sofi is on her way to the vet tomorrow...I hope it is crystals and not a stone but I have a feeling it is the later. So xrays and maybe surgery...she is going to become a very expensive cat quickly. hope for the best.

Any ideas on the wet food would be great...
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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meowmie:

These are the foods that were listed to me before::
innova, merrick, natural balance, felidae, wellness, nutro natural chicken....

What do you think of these ones???? or are there better ones.?
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Old 04-17-2006, 08:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Right now, because they can cause problems and there is no way to know ahead of time whether they would or not for your kitty, the safest thing would be to stay away from Felidae and Wellness. Both of these foods can cause UTIs and struvites in some cats. (With Felidae people complain about UTIs.)

I have no personal experience with Merrick, you would have to try it and see if it produces the right pH. Same thing with the other foods that are available to you. Have to try them and see how well they work. Vets recommend checking on the pH about a month after a cat has been on a new diet. (You can also learn to check on the pH yourself at home.)

Keep in mind, cranberry can be a safe and helpful supplement.

http://www.belfield.com/article4.html

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?a ... w&item=017

Don't get discouraged if things don't work out right away, it can take time to find out what works best for a particular cat.

Fish-based foods are not recommended, they are high in histamine and can cause inflammation in the urinary tract. (They can also exacerbate other urinary problems.)
If you do buy fish-based flavors, feed them very sparingly, just a tiny amount once or twice a week, and only one time on the particular days you want to offer such food.
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Old 04-17-2006, 04:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Meowmie, Can you provide me info or links on Wellness causing uti's? I started feeding canned Wellness to my cats 3 years ago after my male had a blockage, and Iv'e never had a problem since. I feed alot of the turkey/salmon flavor too.

Thanks
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Old 04-17-2006, 07:37 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Well, first and foremost, not all cats develop urinary problems from Wellness. Only some cats do. It is important to keep this in mind. (Same thing with Felidae, Innova Evo, etc.)
But because it can happen, I wouldn't recommend it for a cat that is already having problems.

I can recall only one article so far that mentions something about Wellness and urinary problems. I'll have to think how in the world to find it because at the moment I have no idea what the article was generally about and where to look for it.

The thing is, however, that I'm not saying what I'm saying about the connection between struvites and Wellness based on that article.
Way back, six or seven years ago, after I first heard about the connection, I talked to my vet about struvites and Wellness because I found it hard to believe there really could be a connection. I fully expected her to tell me there was nothing to worry about and the cat that got sick did not get sick because it had been eating Wellness. Instead she said, not only is it possible, "we hear about it a lot".
She explained that not all cats have a good acidic pH when they eat this food and that's why problems develop.

In those days we still thought that most if not all urinary problems were caused by grains. Warnings in newspapers go back to the early 90s. I have one from April 1993. Headline: "Diet suspect in an ailment fatal to cats." Among other things it says:
"There are certain factors that may contribute to the disease, such as insufficient water intake, heredity, stress and dietary problems.
I called a major pet food company and was told that the best diet to give a cat is animal protein, which is cat food made up of meat and fish. Meat especially helps to produce acid in the urine, which is what they need. Stay away from cat food with fillers of soy and wheat. When added it is too alkaline."

So, even years later, the thought that a grain-free food could cause problems for cats, still didn't cross anybody's mind. The explanation that made perfect sense came later when we started thinking about the effect of vegetables and fruits on a cat's pH. Here is a great example from Dr. Jean:

Link: http://catforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4733

Quote:
Veggies are carbs, and particularly on top of a dry diet, can really alkalinize a cat and set it up for urinary tract problems as well as obesity and the other hazards of a high-carb diet. Carrots, corn and peas are high in sugar; potatoes are pure starch.

Not all cats are prone to bladder problems, and this one may handle veggies fine, but they're not good for the general cat population.

Cheers,
Dr. Jean
In Wellness (the old formula) you had sweet potatoes, carrots, alfalfa, cranberries, blueberries, yellow squash, yellow zucchini.

Special note on alfalfa:

From: http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php

Quote:
Alone the fact that alfalfa alkalizes the body makes it a dangerous substance to use in the cat's diet. Cats depend on a slightly acidic acid-base balance; a high body pH - as induced with the use of alfalfa - will put the cat at greater risk of developing urinary crystals.
From Shawn Messonnier DVM (Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats):

“Alfalfa can make urine alkaline and is useful in those bladder conditions where a more alkaline urine is needed (likewise, it should not be used in pets whose medical conditions require an acid urine).”

So, when you think about all this, you can see how and why Wellness (and foods with similar ingredients) can cause problems for some cats.

I’ll do what I can to find that article. It may take a while but I’ll keep working on it.
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Old 04-17-2006, 08:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Meowmie, Thanks

Aaron
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