Stray mum has socialised completely(?) but her kittens haven't improved at all!

[Alyson Jayne]

A month ago we took in a family of strays. The mother was already quite friendly and for some time had been rubbing herself against our legs and letting us stroke her back and tail - but she didn't like hands approaching her and would lash out at them. Then just over a week ago she was steralised and, on the vets instructions, for the period of recuperation we put her in a separate room from her kittens. Quite literally, overnight, she became like putty in our hands! She now has no fear at all of us and we can stroke her on her nose, her chest, her belly - she has become the ultimate cuddly cat Tomorrow we take her back to the vet to have her stitches taken out and she will rejoin her kittens.

The kittens however have made virtually no progress - with and without their mum. They only let us stroke them when they're eating and still act like they're afraid of us, scuttling under furniture when we enter the room. It's getting so frustrating. All we've done is feed them, show them patience, and tip-toe around trying not to startle them, but they act like we're horrible! It's having a negative effect on us, as we're picking up on their nervous, hostile behaviour.

I would appreciate any feedback from other kitty owners about this situation, in particular the following two questions which have arisen:

1) Do you think the reason why the mum suddenly socialised is because of the operation, the experience at the vet, or because she was separated from her kittens?

2) Should we isolate each of the kittens like we did with the mother?
We only have the bathroom free, which means we'd only be able to isolate one at a time which would be a fairly drawn-out process.

[Fyreflie]

I've always had better success with one-on-one for kitties, and I would hazard a guess that isolating the Mum from the kittens probably also made her less worried about protecting her kittens, and more dependent on you for interaction.

There are WAY more experienced people than me on this forum who probably have oodles more advice but I bet isolating the kittens would help them to calm down a lot, even if you just pick them out one by one for an hour every day and spend time petting, playing and grooming? Good luck!

[Heidi n Q]

Originally Posted by Alyson Jayne

1) Do you think the reason why the mum suddenly socialised is because of the operation, the experience at the vet, or because she was separated from her kittens?
2) Should we isolate each of the kittens like we did with the mother?
We only have the bathroom free, which means we'd only be able to isolate one at a time which would be a fairly drawn-out process.

IMO, it sounds like you are doing many things right, and there is only one major suggestion I have, that might help with the kittens.

First, I want to comment about the vet/spay experience. I had some older feral kittens to tame that were about 5-6mo old. By this age, many rescues *won't* accept them into their taming and socialization programs because of the amount of time/effort required to socialize them. I didn't have that information (about how difficult it would be) so I just started them with my KCBC program.
I didn't make as good progress as I'd hoped.

They remained rather stand off-ish with me and would slink away from me as soon as they could...
...UNTIL...
...they went to the vet for 2-3 days for their spay. I had to drop them off in the afternoon, they'd have their spay the next day and I could pick them up the day after that.

When I brought them home, it was like a lightswitch had been flipped. They instantly warmed up to me because they'd spent several days in "that unfamiliar and scary place" and *I* came back and brought them back *home* to The Good Place. It was like a dam broke; they allowed me to pet, cuddle, pick up, carry and play with them and they would come to me to ask for me to give them attention.

I think that ^^^ is what happened with your mamma-cat. Another factor *could* have been that w/out her kittens present, and where she felt an instinctual command to protect them, she allowed herself to receive and accept your attention.

Finally, for the kittens. I have always tamed/socialized litters of kittens in my bathroom. They do not get to come out of the bathroom (for exercise purposes) until they will come easily to the food plate so I can close them back into the bathroom if/when I need to.
I like the bathroom because it has no furniture for the kitts to become inaccessible to you. When taming and socializing kittens, I visit them frequently and for short periods of time, trying to gently/firmly handle each kitten next-to, or on, my lap. I also avoid giving them direct looks, unless it is to give them an eye-blink. The KCBC covers this more in-depth, but I'd move the litter of kitts into the bathroom and begin your own KCBC with them.
If they are a bit older, like the ones I mentioned earlier, work with them as often as you can so when they do have to go to the vet .... they'll realize you and your home are actually a Very Good Thing because it is familiar and not as scary as being at the vet.

If you get a chance, check out the 3 videos Merry (Mitts/Tess) posted about the Urban Cat League's techniques, they are *very* similar to my own.

Best of luck with everyone!
heidi =^..^=

[Alyson Jayne]

Originally Posted by Heidi n Q

Finally, for the kittens. I have always tamed/socialized litters of kittens in my bathroom. They do not get to come out of the bathroom (for exercise purposes) until they will come easily to the food plate so I can close them back into the bathroom if/when I need to.
I like the bathroom because it has no furniture for the kitts to become inaccessible to you. When taming and socializing kittens, I visit them frequently and for short periods of time, trying to gently/firmly handle each kitten next-to, or on, my lap. I also avoid giving them direct looks, unless it is to give them an eye-blink.

Further to the mother returning to her brood the kittens have calmed down a little bit. They watch her rubbing herself against me and being petted by me, but instead of copying her, they start rubbing themselves against their mother! They just don't seem curious in me at all. They get fed and put up with being stroked while this is going on, but otherwise pay no attention to me, except in a defensive/protective way.
We tried isolating the kittens individually in the bathroom. Our bathroom is kitted out with really annoying Ikea units on legs which they can squeeze through and into. The first and only night a kitten was in there he would not stop meowing and howling the whole time, which unsettled the rest of the kittens in the other room who could hear him.
I'd like to try the handling thing you mentioned in the KCBC, but they just won't let me get that close, unless it's at meal time.
I feel overwhelmed. We have four, and am getting nowhere with any of them as they are impossible to separate, that is if they don't scatter or hide I approach them. It's so frustrating.

[Heidi n Q]

I don't separate the kittens, I house them all in the bathroom together and handle each whenever I can. If this means at feeding time, then do it at feeding time. I feel keeping them together helps them learn by seeing the others be handled and nothing 'bad' happened and it also seems to give them confidence in being together. If you can reach just ONE kitten, usually that one will lead the others and they will follow its' example and allow you to handle and socialize everyone.
To socialize ferals, you must be dedicated, frequent and consistent.
Good luck!
heidi

[Alyson Jayne]

Originally Posted by Heidi n Q

I don't separate the kittens, I house them all in the bathroom together and handle each whenever I can. If this means at feeding time, then do it at feeding time. I feel keeping them together helps them learn by seeing the others be handled and nothing 'bad' happened and it also seems to give them confidence in being together. If you can reach just ONE kitten, usually that one will lead the others and they will follow its' example and allow you to handle and socialize everyone.
To socialize ferals, you must be dedicated, frequent and consistent.
Good luck!
heidi

Thanks for reassuring us that we're not completely screwing up the operation by keeping them together, we're just not experienced with cats at all so we think we're doing everything wrong!

However there have been some developments since Because we'd hit a plateau/wall in our attempts to handle them, I thought about trying a different approach. A couple of days ago I decided to start implementing really long sessions of play with them as I figured if they associated us with fun they may feel more comfortable around us, which is something they clearly weren't. So I set to work with the various toys on string we have and after growing tired I sat on the sofa and made it so they'd have to jump on the sofa next me to catch the bait. Which they eventually did, we carried on like this for an hour or so, which was cool because I could do this and watch a film!
At the end of the play session, one of the least friendly kittens, Muffin, let me stroke him on his back, which is awesome as it's the first time I've stroked any of them while they're not eating. Also, last night Muffin sat on my legs while playing, then he lay down, and before I knew it the rest of the kittens were snuggled up to me. They're not as jumpy as they used to be and I'm delighted!

We were so caught up with the advice which says the number one priority is to get them used to being handled by using food as bait that we felt we were failing when they didn't respond to this. I'm delighted we're figured out a way to win them round, even if they're still a long way off from being cuddly cats!

[Heidi n Q]

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!
I cannot express how excited I am for you with this news! One thing with taming/socializing ... the cats don't know the 'rules' either. The best thing a person can be is flexible and able to think of solutions outside-the-box ... and you guys DID IT!!! In fact, I'll be filing *your* hint away, because that is GREAT information!

See? Even people who have a lot of experience can STILL learn new things, even from people who think they aren't that experienced. Sometimes it takes an unbiased approach to recognize and try new techniques. I cannot stress enough that taming and socializing cats is a constant learning process, and you have helped me by sharing your information of what worked for you. Thank you!

[Alyson Jayne]

Playtime needs to be done for significant period of time though - I don't think 5mins a day would suffice. At the least half an hour every day, but as I said it can be done while you're watching telly or chatting to someone on the phone. Fortunately (for them) I'm not working so I can do lots of short spells throughout the day. In fact am sitting at my desk atm with their favourite toy - a mouse stuffed with catnip on a fishing rod. From time to time I wiggle it about and it's enough to keep them in close proximity to me, engaged and forgetting (temporarily) that I should be avoided! The great thing is with these dangley toys is once they're engaged, you can also control the distance between you, gradually closing the gap and drawing them onto your knees or lap, which is great if they're otherwise too nervous to do this.

[Alyson Jayne]

As we weren't making much progress socialising the kittens the cat association who help us have found 3 of them separate temporary foster homes with experienced cat-owners, where they stand a better chance of being socialised. The most aggressive and anti-social kittens left first, and we've noticed the remaining ones are less self-contained and more interactive with us.

This completely falls in line with what one of the carers told us, which is that feral kittens are less 'open' to form new relationships when they are with their siblings. They need to be separated in order to break out of their comfort zone and connect with people.

The 3rd one, Muffin, is leaving today for his new new home and we're absolutely confident the remaining one, Tabby, will make lots of progress without her shy, skittish brother distracting her.

[wea]

just wanted to also point to a study that shows that socialising kittens at a later age (beyond 12 weeks) is highly dependent of the genes of the father.
Kittens that had unfriendly fathers, did not socialize very well. Only kittens that had friendly fathers did quite well in their socializing efforts.

Whether or not to socilize kittens should in my opnion be a very carefull consideration on the situation of the cats. If they can be placed back in a colony that is being monitored by neigbours, this is more catfriendly than a forced socialization. However, sometimes there is no option but to socialize them. nevertheless, this is a period of extreme stress for the kittens. They are confronted with creatures they fear and often can not escape from. I myself would go completely nuts being put in a room full of spiders, but that is often what we do with kittens when we are socilializing them.