Just started prey model raw today!

[Nymphicus]

Hello Everybody! I sent AC a pm asking these questions, but then realized "Why don't I just ask the whole forum! "

I had a question about raw. I just started (today actually) and had a couple of questions.

So far, I got:

-Whole chicken carcass w/giblets and neck (no head)
-chicken leg quarters
-turkey necks
-turkey wings
-turkey giblets
-chicken liver
-beef liver
-chicken heart
-chicken "stew" meat chunks


I dissected the whole chicken into 4 plastic containers, breaking it up into smaller chunks. I tried to split it so each container gets the same proportions of bone/meat/insides. Two got a drumstick, and the other two got the wings.

I also added a small piece of liver to each bucket, and will add a couple of hearts to each once they defrost.

I guess my main two questions were, am I doing this right? And the second, how do I ensure that the raw diet supplies all the needed vitamins and minerals? I know about the 80-10-5-5. Will the whole bird follow these ratios? I guess I would feel more comfortable feeding the "whole" animal, but even the whole chicken is missing it's heads and I'm assuming other internal parts like the blood since it is somewhat hollow on the inside. Also, for example, I read that cats get their iodine supply from their prey's thyroid glands, but I don't know if that's in the "whole" chicken or not. And it's certainly not in the leg quarters.

Do I need to add any supplements? (Vit E, iodine, Vit B?, etc). Also, I got some real farm eggs from the farmer's market - how often should they get eggs?

Help!

Thanks

[Pixall]

If you want things to be simple, feed mainly whole prey. This means ordering from somewhere like rodentpro or hare today. Whole prey does not mean buying a whole chicken from the supermarket. Like you noticed, the bird only comes with a few organs, no feathers, head, feet etc.

Otherwise, I would go ahead and do what you are doing now. Don't feed liver and only feed one protein source for now. You don't want upset tummy(s). After two weeks or so you can start slowly adding other sources. Chicken seems to be the most popular starting animal. Don't worry too much if your cat(s) don't go for it or the bones right away, this is fairly normal as well. I had a great deal of trouble switching my adult cat from kibble to canned and then from canned to raw. The kitten was a breeze, though, so you never really know how they will react till you try it.

As far as calcium if they wont eat bone, grind up the shells from those eggs and give about a pinch per meal per cat mixed with their meat. I find eggs to behave in a cats system the same way organ meats do, they soften stools and help things move along. They have a lot of nutrients in them too! I give a couple eggs a week to my cats.

As far as vitamin/mineral supplements, a properly balanced prey model raw diet provides everything your cat needs. To be extra sure, you can feed whole prey.

I personally feed Kyra and Seymour(the dog) prey model raw, while Tucker gets whole prey and prey model raw. Tucker will eventually be switched to 100% whole prey for ease of feeding. I may do this with the dog and Kyra too, but I don't know if Kyra has the ability to eat whole prey, and the dog would require larger prey items and more of them.

In the end of the switching process you want to wind up with LOTS of variety, though. If you are feeding whole prey, get as many species as you can! Rodents, birds, lizards, snakes, amphibians, bugs. If prey model raw, pretty much anything and everything.

Remember that you want liver to only make up half of the organ requirements. Also, liver will supply many of the nutrients you are concerned with, it is a very nutrient dense organ!

Hope this helped you some, and remember, don't overwhelm yourself! Once you get into it you realize it really isn't as complicated as it seems. Have fun.
Pix

[Muzby]

The drumsticks won't be considered bone content because the cats won't be able to get through them (thighs either). Wings, ribs, and sometimes back/necks from chickens are the biggest bones I'd go for first times (and I would probably mash them with a mallet/hammer before offering to make it easier).

I would ditch the turkey bones (or give them to the dog?) or save them and try to just get meat off them later. My cats have been raw for over two years and still have troubles with turkey necks and can't really chew through the wings well (the dogs are happy to help! haha).

No organs right now. Chicken meat only, and make sure none of it is enhanced. Luckily chicken bones are easy to find.

Once they have transitioned well to chicken (no runs, etc), you can start adding small pieces of organ meats (liver/kidneys). I usually wait until the cat/dog has been on raw a few weeks for this.

In cats (and small dogs) it's usually best to go for 80/10/5/5 over a week, instead of daily. The portions are rediculously small daily and I find it's much easier to feed organ one day a week than trying to get the "correct" small portions daily. We feed boney stuff the day before and after organ day to help with the runs.

Goodluck! We're here for you.

[Nymphicus]

Thanks for the input guys. I like the idea of whole prey, but it's just too expensive on a student budget.

An update, last night they got half of the chicken back, and "crunch crunch crunch" - they ate right through the ribs and everything - nothing left!

One question that I didn't think of previously was, how to ensure each cat (I have two, and one is more bossy) gets the 80-10-5-5 ratio, if one cat decides to grab the bony piece and the other cat grabs the liver?

Also, is there any sort of blood panel or test I can get at the vet in, say, 4 months or so to check if they have deficiencies or overloads of certain nutrients?


Thanks again!

[Muzby]

CONGRATS on the jaw strength right away! That's amazing!!

I stole the idea to feed in kennels from AuntieCrazy! I have two cat kennels, and all cats have their kennel to eat in. They know which is theirs. At dinner time (or close to what THEY think should be dinner time) you will often find all the cats in their kennels waiting for food. LOL

They won't be deficient in a few months, it would take much longer. I get bloodwork on my elderly cat yearly now, and there are a few things you need to know will be "different" with rawfed cats.. I hope AC or laurief can step in as I am not 100% on what they are (I think cretin & BUN?). Anyways, those will be higher than "normal" in a rawfed cat, but it's completely normal.

Our cats have been rawfed for a few years now and the only thing we need to up is fishoils/fatty skin (I know because they have dandruff). If your cats have loose stools, they need more bone. If they're having a hard time going (my elderly cat had stool so hard it caused his anus to bleed) they need less bone, more meat. It's pretty easy to tell.

[Beth_Laubenthal]

Originally Posted by Muzby

The drumsticks won't be considered bone content because the cats won't be able to get through them (thighs either). Wings, ribs, and sometimes back/necks from chickens are the biggest bones I'd go for first times (and I would probably mash them with a mallet/hammer before offering to make it easier).

You would think... One of my cats has been eating the drumstick bone and days I offer thigh, the cat eats the thigh bone. No joke. I thought it was impossible (hence, my reasoning for offering wings). The only part of the chicken they refuse is the "hips" on the back.

Anyways, I agree with everyone else.

As long as you get a balance OVER TIME, there should be no deficiencies. If you actually look at the amount of liver, organ and bone they require in comparison to the meat, it's amazing how little they actually need. I actually created a handy chart that breaks down the 2-3 percent that you're supposed to feed into the 80/10/5/5 ratio. The chart is based off how much you would feed throughout the week (the liver and organ are listed together. If the value says "1 pound," you feed 1 pound liver and 1 pound other organ meat):
https://sites.google.com/site/rawpg2...w-much-to-feed

If your cats steal food from each other, feed them seperately. When it comes to liver and organs, I have 2 that hate it and 1 that cannot get enough of it. I feed the one her share, and force the other two to eat theirs (usually by rubbing it all over the fur).

Good luck!

[Nymphicus]

Another update:

I am about almost all through 1 container (1/4 of the whole chicken) after about 1 1/2 days. I also fed them a raw egg yesterday. I first put it in the dish and cracked a bit and they stared at me like "What do you think you're doing?". But i cracked it more and got them licking it off my finger and then just stuck my finger in the egg and they pretty much ate the whole inside. They did not seem interested in the shell. I tried crushing it into smaller pieces with my hand but they still didn't seem interested.

I also put up a crate on one side of the feeding area with a place mat in it so they can drag it there if they want to instead of around the carpet.


Some more questions:

- Is there a large difference between buying fresh and frozen meat? Also, if I buy fresh organs (heart meat, liver, gizzards, etc), I read somewhere that you should freeze them first in case of parasites.
- How often should I feed an egg for two cats (once a week, twice a week?)?
- What about fish? I found some good looking smelt (fresh and frozen both same price) at the Asian grocery store, and they look a perfect snack size. They also had salmon and lots of other kinds of fish. They also had "whole" chicken and duck...with the head and everything!


Thanks for the help!

[Muzby]

- Is there a large difference between buying fresh and frozen meat? Also, if I buy fresh organs (heart meat, liver, gizzards, etc), I read somewhere that you should freeze them first in case of parasites.

Two things. 1. Hear and gizzards are NOT organ. They are meat. Liver/kidney/thymus/spleen/uterus/testicles/brain are organs. 2. I feed everything fresh if I have it, but a lot of people like to freezer first. It's up to you.

- How often should I feed an egg for two cats (once a week, twice a week?)?

I would stay away from the eggs right now. Eggs can cause the runs, and since you're new to raw - take it much slower! If you over-do variety they will get pretty icky feeling from the runs. Stick with chicken ONLY for a few weeks, then start adding in other stuff.. beef, pork, rabbit, turkey, etc. I do an egg every month usually, as a treat.

- What about fish? I found some good looking smelt (fresh and frozen both same price) at the Asian grocery store, and they look a perfect snack size. They also had salmon and lots of other kinds of fish. They also had "whole" chicken and duck...with the head and everything!

Fish is ok in small amounts, and important for Omegas! I wouldn't be adding fish in your diet yet, because you're new to raw (first week?). Wait until they are starting to get new proteins and try a smelt. Those and sardines are apparently high in Omegas. We do canned, no salt added packed in water sardines once a week here.

[Nymphicus]

Yes that was a typo instead, I understand that for our purpose organ refers to hormone secreting organs. I got the fresh smelt today since it was on the way home (went to visit some friends). I'll stick it in the freezer for now.

[Nymphicus]

Is there a max for number of chicken hearts per day or per week? I've been giving a couple a day along with the whole chicken parts.