New to raw, questions galore!

[carbonxxkidd]

Hi all, I am in the process of transitioning my cats to an at least 50/50 canned/raw diet. They are getting a mixture of Nature's Variety Instinct and Wellness grain-free cans and I have been trying to give raw for dinner 3-4 days a week (just started last week).

So far, Callisto will pretty much eat whatever I give her - chicken (wings, thighs, hearts, gizzards, liver), pork, beef, quail. Venison did not agree with her, and she projectile vomited (into the litterbox! how perfect!) but otherwise she is a trooper. For a 6 year old cat, she took to raw immediately. I have already noticed an increase in energy with her too. She has always been a lazy cat and usually will only play for a minute or two and then resort to simply batting at her teaser toy when it's put next to her. This past week with the raw meals she has been playing - running and jumping like crazy - for 20-30 minutes straight with me! It is very rewarding to see that because she hasn't done that since she was a baby kitten.

Ganymede, on the other hand, is much more picky. He rarely finishes his whole canned meals (in one sitting at least) and has shown to be the same way with the raw. The first thing I have gotten him to completely eat was 1/2 a quail, cut up, but he ate the bones and all! He will eat some pork, venison, chicken (liver, thighs) but only a chunk or two and then walk away. I have tried mixing it in with his canned and sprinkling treats on top and that doesn't help. I have already accepted the fact that he will be harder to transition, but I'm also wondering if a lot of his problem is simply that he feels full and therefore stops eating? I wanted to switch Gan to raw, especially, because he has had some digestive and urinary issues in the past and I have heard raw might be the way to go. Being on an grain-free canned food for the past year has already helped him significantly, he has gained a pound and no longer looks and feels anorexic, but raw might help him more. After 1 week of eating raw for dinner, his breath is basically non-existent (he has had nasty breath ever since he was a tiny kitten) and his gums are already looking better (he had some mild gingivitis I think, slightly red at the base of the teeth, it's turning pink now). I don't have access to a grinder and am nervous about buying ground stuff at the grocery store (where it's cheapest) because of what I've read online, but am not sure how to get him to eat more!

For my questions: Is it okay that they are eating a half and half diet? I am not sure how much they should be eating with each meal. They each get about 3oz canned food in the morning and I have been giving them 2-3oz of raw at night, right now...each cat should weigh about 9lbs. Should their raw meals be perfectly proportioned (80% meat, 10% bone, 5% organ, 5% liver) every night or can I do that over the course of a week? Or does the canned make up for what's missing in the raw? I am having trouble finding organ meat - I have asked my dad to save organs from deer hunting and am going to check at the Asian market the next time I go to buy quail. Does giving them canned make up for the lack of organ meat too?

I'm sorry this is so long, any advice would be much appreciated.

[hoofmaiden]

Originally Posted by carbonxxkidd

I have already accepted the fact that he will be harder to transition, but I'm also wondering if a lot of his problem is simply that he feels full and therefore stops eating? I wanted to switch Gan to raw, especially, because he has had some digestive and urinary issues in the past and I have heard raw might be the way to go. Being on an grain-free canned food for the past year has already helped him significantly, he has gained a pound and no longer looks and feels anorexic, but raw might help him more. After 1 week of eating raw for dinner, his breath is basically non-existent (he has had nasty breath ever since he was a tiny kitten) and his gums are already looking better (he had some mild gingivitis I think, slightly red at the base of the teeth, it's turning pink now). I don't have access to a grinder and am nervous about buying ground stuff at the grocery store (where it's cheapest) because of what I've read online, but am not sure how to get him to eat more!

I'm going to guess, based on the above, that it's very possible that Gan has IBD. It's not uncommon in commercially-fed cats. Raw will cure it, BUT early on getting IBD cats to eat enough is hard b/c their GI tracts are still inflamed. Also, IBD cats are pretty much always B12 deficient (IBD=malapsorption, and B12 not being absorbed makes them feel crappy).

I recommend that you begin supplementing him w/ B12 at once. Get human sublingual tablets that have NO xylitol, sorbitol, etc. in them and be sure to get the methylcobalamin preparation, NOT cyanocobalamin (which is poorly absorbed). No shot is the brand I used. Give him 1000 mg/day for 2 weeks, then 1000 mg every other day for 2 weeks, then 1000 mg twice a week for 2 weeks, then once a week for a month. Then discontinue.

Generally this improves how they feel and how they eat. Once they get enough raw into them, they improve fast.

But I would NOT feed a combination of raw and commercial at this point, b/c commercial food is what caused the problem. His GI tract cannot recover as long as he's getting commercial food.

Should their raw meals be perfectly proportioned (80% meat, 10% bone, 5% organ, 5% liver) every night or can I do that over the course of a week?

Over time is OK, but cats are dicier than dogs. Try to get the %s covered w/in a DAY, not a week. I.e., bone-in quail am, boneless meat and liver pm. Feed 3X a day, at least for a while, to encourage Gan to eat more over the course of a day.

Does giving them canned make up for the lack of organ meat too?

Giving canned only unbalances the diet and keep Gan feeling cruddy. I would ditch it ASAP. Get some ground beef if you think he needs some "easier" food to tempt him for a bit (in place of regular meatymeat, say), but get rid of the canned.

[hoofmaiden]

I also recommend reading through this thread--tons of info on IBD.

Raw Diets For IBD sufferer

[carbonxxkidd]

So is it possible to get by without other organs (kidney, spleen, etc) if I have liver? I will try and find some at my Asian market but for now all I have is chicken liver.

Ganymede does not seem to have IBD based on what I read in the other thread, at least not to the same severity. He seems to be feeling just fine (no diarrhea, no vomiting) except for not eating very much in one sitting - he will eat some, walk away, and then come back later to finish it. He didn't seem to have any of the IBD symptoms before he was on grain-free canned food either, except he just didn't gain weight no matter how much he ate (that has definitely changed now). I will try the B-12 though, so far I can only find the cyano in my local stores so I might need to order it online somewhere.

Thanks for all your advice!

[Penguin_Dreams]

Ganymede sounds a lot like my Diva who also does not have IBD. We just went to the vet a few weeks ago, had a thorough check up and a lot of tests and she's "just fine". Except for the part where she's got a sensitive tummy, hairballs, and not a huge appetite. She also hates the raw stuff.

While raw really is better for them, if they won't eat it, it's useless. If Gan is willing to starve himself rather than eat 100% raw, like Diva is, that's even worse that a quality canned mixed with however much raw he will eat. A few tricks I've tried with varying degrees of success is switching up the treats I put on top of the food. Sometimes it's dehydrated liver, other times it's Vitakitty treats or parmesean cheese (the cheap stuff that comes in a green shaker). You might also try switching the place where they eat. I don't understand it, but with Diva, the same food she won't eat in the kitchen is suddenly edible if I serve it to her in the living room. It's worth a shot, anyway. We also do meals about 3-4 times a day. Yeah, she's very high maintenance.

The individual meals don't have to be perfectly proportioned but should come to the correct ratios every 4-5 days or so although you probably do have a little more leeway since you're using canned as well. What the organs provide is high amounts of taurine which is essential and may not be present in sufficient quantities if they're only getting half canned. You can get taurine supplements at the store and mix it in with their food. The recipes I've seen that compensate for no organs seem to be just over 1000 mg per lb of food and I'm sorry, I'm horrible at math, so you'll have to work that out per can yourself. You can round down to account for the supplements found in the canned food.

Just out of curiosity, if you got another cat would you name it Io or Europa?

[carbonxxkidd]

Haha, you know, I would, but I am not going to be getting another cat/dog/anything until I lose one of my current ones (which hopefully won't be for many, many years). I like the name Io better than Europa for an animal, though. Most people don't understand the reference, so kudos to you. My dogs are named Titan and Orion, too!

Thanks for the tips! Ganymede sounds similar to your Diva in the sense that if I move his food bowl from the perch where he should eat to the floor, or the kitchen counter, he will continue eating. I unfortunately don't have time to feed him 3-4 times a day because I am at work so he usually gets a meal at about 7am and then another at about 4pm. I do give him a little snack before bed at 10:30pm but I'm not sure if that counts as a third meal.

As for supplements, my goal is to not have to worry about any of that. I keep telling Ganymede that he needs to eat something other than quail, and he actually seems to really like chicken liver too but everything else is just kind of "meh" for him. He does seem to be doing very well on his canned diet. He has been on Nature's Variety Instinct cans for a little over a year now and it really has totally changed him. He used to be on all dry, and then half dry/half canned (all fish, my mistake, I now stay away from fish) and then he got a urinary blockage and the vet put him on Royal Canin (ew) and he puked at least once a week and looked sickly so I gave in and just switched him to an all wet, all grain-free diet and the results have been amazing. No more puking and his coat, eyes, everything looks so much better. I guess I will just have to take what I can get! If I can find some good organ meats I will continue to give him at least a few balanced raw meals a week (most likely will be quail with chicken liver and whatever other organ I can find, given he'll eat it) and go from there. I do have chicken hearts/gizzards for taurine, but he doesn't seem to like them much. I might just have to cut them up smaller and try to hide them in something he does like.

I was hoping to save myself a little bit of money by switching to raw. I might try to buy whole mice and see how he takes to those. Even if he gets a few raw meals a week I figure that will be good for him. If only he was as easy as Callisto!

[Penguin_Dreams]

If you've found a balance between health and nutrition and their willingness to eat it, it sounds like you're doing great!

I'm interested to hear about how the mice goes and hope you'll update. I've considered buying some for my guys but given their reluctance to eat whole chicken parts, I just can't justify the minimum order of 50 mice and... all those little dead mice babies.

Thanks for the kudos! I love astronomy. Well... I love space. Unfortunately, astronomy tends to come with all this math stuff. So I'm just kind of an amateur star-gazer. Your dog's names are beautiful!

[lovetimesfour]

I feed commercial canned, commercial raw (Rad Cat and Stella&Chewy's) and home made prey model. I, too, turned to raw because of certain digestive and other health issues in a couple of my cats.

I've been working on a balance that works for me and my girls since May, and I am just about where I want to be for now.

One cat is eating 50% raw, 50% canned. Of the 50% raw, half is Rad Cat, the other half alternates between Stella&Chewy's and prey-model homemade. She took to every form of raw I've offered, and like yours, the changes in her after starting even a small amount of raw every day were very dramatic.

Another cat is eating 25% raw, Rad Cat, and the rest canned. She also gets .2 (point two, 2/10) ounce of prey-model every day. She was slow to eat the Rad Cat, but doens't need any garnish on it now. However she still needs a dusting over her small amount of chunks. Her improvements were slower to show but now I am beginning to see them, and I couldn't be more delighted with the changes.

The third cat, who has no health or dietary issues loves raw and would eat it full time if I had the nerve, but I just can't trust any diet 100%. She is 30% prey model raw and 70% canned, some days it is closer to 50-50. She also is beginning to show some changes. She's never been much for interactive play, but lately she is joining in the Games I play with the other two at night.

And their coats! I can't get enough of their lovely lovely coats!

[carbonxxkidd]

I made a stop at Petco today and ended up buying some Nature's Variety raw bites (lamb and duck) to try to mix in with Ganymede's food. For the price I paid, I think it will last me a while and if I can get him to eat that at least I know it's raw and (mostly) balanced. I say mostly because I've heard there's a bit higher bone content than needed, but I can add stuff to that to even it out. I was going to buy some frozen mice there to try considering you can buy them in small amounts (unlike online) but 3 hopper mice were $5! Which is obscene, I could get like 4-5 live adult mice for cheaper than that. I did not buy the mice, but I might decide to buy them later to try and when I do I will update.

Penguin_dreams, I took an astronomy class in high school and in college, and that's really the extent of my knowledge too. I look at the stars every night (given it's clear outside) and have an immense appreciation for space but am definitely no expert! Plus, the names of constellations and moons are kind of fun for animals.

lovetimesfour, thanks for sharing! It's nice to hear from someone who doesn't feed 100% raw because I have read so many negative things about it and that is kind of the route I want to take at the moment. I figure some raw is better than none, and eventually I might take the full plunge. I have also noticed a change in Callisto's coat. I think with her though, it's not so much the raw as the grain-free canned at the moment. I was feeding her Friskies/Fancy Feast for a while simply because it was cheap and she seems to do well on anything. She has been on the grain-free canned for a couple months now and her coat is definitely softer than it was when she was eating the cheap stuff! I still think it's the raw that is giving her so much energy though and I'm really liking that. I'm hoping to continue seeing the benefits now!

Another question I just thought of: how do you get people to accept the fact that you are feeding raw? My mom is totally against it, and no matter what I tell her she thinks that for some reason the makeup of dogs and cats has changed so much that they are meant to eat kibble/canned and not raw. Any suggestions on getting her to stop criticizing me? If all else fails I will just stop mentioning what I feed them all together, but it'd be nice to have her support.

[carbonxxkidd]

Little update. Tonight for dinner I gave the cats pork and chicken livers. I didn't weigh it out, but I'm guessing it was approx. 3oz pork and 1 whole chicken liver each. I know that is more than they need for one meal, but they both ate it all - even Ganymede! He really loves liver and ate that first and then ate the pork (again, all of it!). Callisto saved the liver for last.

Is it possible to feed to much liver? I probably won't give them any more for a couple days, but Ganymede was on the counter eating it before I even put it in their bowls so he might have eaten a little more than I thought.

Do cats still overeat when fed raw? Callisto tends to get fat. I'm fine with Ganymede eating whatever he wants for now because he's not fat and could probably use a little more weight. I do have a scale that my boss loaned me - a really expensive digital scale used for laboratory work, but every time I use it I have to take it out of the box and it's just kind of a pain, so if I don't need to necessarily weigh everything that would be nice.