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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2005, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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Homeopathic Vaccines

Does any have any knowledge or experience with homeopathic vaccines, i.e. nosodes?

My vet specializes in a lot of homeopathic remedies and for my new kitten suggested I could use nosodes instead of regular injections for his first kitten shots. I have one vial of pills for feline panleucopenia and one vial for feline viral rhinotrachea.

Anyone know of any dangers or harms from these? I can't find anything negative at all on the internet so far, just thought I'd check and see if anyone has any experience in this area. Thanks!
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2005, 11:20 PM
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I didn't know what a nosode is, so I found this:
http://www.naturalrearing.com/J_In_Lear ... OSODES.htm

Can't answer your question. However, my opinion, based on what I know of homeopathy, is that they are harmless. And useless.

One thing you might consider is that if you're ever in a situation of facing a requirement for having vaccinated your cats, this won't cover it.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2005, 11:25 PM
 
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I agree with timskitties. There is no scientific evidence that homeopathy is anything more than the placebo effect. If you are giving homeopathy because you think it might calm your anxious cat, that's one thing. But vaccinations are important. Are you willing to risk your cat's life on it?
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-15-2005, 11:26 PM
 
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Jen, you are in dangerous territory here and I hope you won't go with this recommendation.
Please get this book:
Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats by Shawn Messonnier DVM and read the information about homeopathic vaccine nosodes. Then read the information about the titers tests.

I have two things to say to you on the subject of vaccinations.
1. Do not endanger your kitten's life and long-term health by not properly vaccinating against the major infectious diseases.
2. Do not allow your kitten to be vaccinated before he is completely well and has been well for some time. Never ever vaccinate a sick cat.

The information you'll find in the book is completely unbiased, coming from one of the finest holistic vets in the country.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 04:26 AM
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You could titre test first, find out what levels of immunity your kitty has, before deciding. I titre test Elliot every year as he is so reactive. Some might be surprised by the level of immunity our pets already have, after none of just one set of vaccines. All cats/dogs are individuals.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thank you guys very very much. I was leery about the idea of these to begin with and I'm glad I got some feedback. Unfortunately the vet already gave him 1 out of the 4 doses of nosodes and I need to figure out what to do next.

Meowmie, my vet saw my kitten yesterday - he was sick over the weekend with what looked to be pneumonia (you gave me great info in the other thread) but he's pretty much back to his normal self. I'm giving antibiotics and using a humidifier and that seems to be helping a lot. Now my vet gave him the nosodes yesterday and she said that homeopathic vaccines are different from normal ones in that they can actually be helpful to give when an animal is ill because they boost the immune system, whereas with normal vaccines you would never vaccinate a sick cat. Does this sound right to anyone else? I would never want to jeapordize my kitty. The nosodes are supposed to be given every 3 weeks for 4 months but after more reading and getting feedback I think I need to go the conventional route for his first shots and just check titers each year. Ugh, I wish I never would have listened to her to give the first round, she's just so persuasive. Does anyone have any idea how long I'd need to wait to give the normal vaccines since he's had one round of nosodes already? Would the nosodes interact with the normal vaccines?

I feel so confused about this vet. I initially went to her because of another cat who's a chronic vomiter and conventional veterinary medicine did nothing to help him for years. After seeing her, his problems have almost stopped entirely and she's been a HUGE help. That cat is the healthiest he's ever been.

But whereas I didn't want to go with a clinic who is entirely "conventional" medicine, she seems to be too much on the side of "alternative" medicine and I need a happy medium. She's great for behavioral problems and for suggesting remedies to complement my pet's healthcare but I'm starting to feel nervous about her expertise when an animal is actually really sick. For example (maybe someone can help me with this) she said that 98-99 degrees is a normal temperature for a cat and I've always been told by other vets that it's higher and around 102?

I'm sorry for the long post. I just want my kitties to be as healthy as they can be and conventional medicine hasn't always worked for me in the past. But I certainly don't want to jeapordize them by not giving them something they should have.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JenUrich
she said that homeopathic vaccines are different from normal ones in that they can actually be helpful to give when an animal is ill because they boost the immune system,
That is in accord with the theory of homeopathic.
Quote:
Would the nosodes interact with the normal vaccines?
No.
Quote:
another cat who's a chronic vomiter and conventional veterinary medicine did nothing to help him for years.
Holistic methodology can be quite useful at times for dietary problems.
Quote:
she said that 98-99 degrees is a normal temperature for a cat and I've always been told by other vets that it's higher and around 102?
It depends how it's measured. Perhaps she's measuring it differently.

Perhaps you want to combine natural and conventional medicine (if you can afford to do both).
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 08:57 AM
 
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Hi Jen!

First, a word of caution:

Nosodes should not be given unless your cat is under the care of a competent classical homeopath. Over-medication with nosodes or giving nosodes to a sensitive individual could produce a "remedy disease" which will be far worse than the natural disease because your cat may never recover. A remedy disease is similar to vaccinosis (a vaccine-induced disease) — both conditions are very difficult to cure. Some cats are going to be more susceptible to particular nosodes, therefore, it is important that a very small dose be given initially and the cat carefully observed for any symptoms. This is not something a caregiver unfamiliar with homeopathy should take on.

Is this vet an accredited classical homeopath? Is she an affiliate? What do you know about her training and background and how long she has been working with homeopathic remedies?

If you have a competent conventional vet you can trust please discuss the vaccination issue with him or her and find out how long you should wait before vaccinating your kitten under the circumstances. (After your kitten has completely recovered 2 to 4 weeks would be a reasonable amount of time.)

You should absolutely go with the proven and safe vaccination protocol for kittens and then check immunity later. If you get the book I recommended to you last night you will find answers to all your questions. Objective, responsible information you can trust.

Under certain circumstances some nosodes can be helpful in treating certain diseases later in life. However that's a whole different issue.

Has your chronic vomiter ever been tested for IBD?
Holistic medicine can make an incredible difference when it comes to treating certain chronic gastrointestinal diseases, so I'm glad you were able to find a vet who could really help you.

In my experience it's best to have a wonderful, competent, caring conventional vet we can fully trust AND a wonderful, competent, caring holistic vet we can also fully trust. That way we can always find the best, safest treatment for our pets under all kinds of different circumstances.
There are times when it's absolutely necessary to go with conventional treatment, and there are times when we have to stabilize a condition with conventional medicine before holistic medicine can take over and keep the condition under control safely for the rest of our pet's life.

Average normal temperature for an adult cat is somewhere between 100 and 103F.
Young kittens have a lower body temperature, somewhere between 96 and 100F during the first few weeks of life.

Giving plenty of food and making sure a kitten eats frequently is a good way to keep a kitten warm, to keep it from getting chilled.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JenUrich
Does anyone have any idea how long I'd need to wait to give the normal vaccines since he's had one round of nosodes already? Would the nosodes interact with the normal vaccines?
May I explain a little bit about homeopathy? I've done some studying about this subject.

It was started 200 years ago by Samuel Hahnemann who was a doctor, but working as a medical translator at the time. He was translating a medical text that involved how cinchona bark cured malaria. The author thought cinchona bark made the stomach acidic which then killed the malaria protozoa. Hahnemann thought that was an incorrect assumption, so he tried some cinchona bark himself. He became fevered and sweaty. So he tried it again. Same results. That's when he declared his "natural law" of like cures like. The only problem is--he didn't try it out on other people first. His reaction to cinchona bark is an allergic one. Many people have taken quinine since (the active part of cinchona bark) and do not have Hahnemann's abnormal reaction. So starting with this (faulty) assumption, Hahnemann created homeopathy.

A remedy is created by taking the mother tincture and diluting it either 1 part mother tincture and 9 parts solvent (an X solution) or 1 part mother tincture to 99 part solvent (a C solution). The solvent is either water or alcohol. It is then shaken up. That makes either a 1X or 1C solution. Then it is repeated with one part of the 1X or 1C diluted again. This happens over and over. At 12X or 6C you have reached the limit of where there are still molecules of the orginal substance. After 12X or 6C no molecules remain.

Nosodes are products made from pathological organs or tissues; causative agents such as bacteria, fungi, ova, parasites, virus particles and yeast; disease products; or excretions. Yuck. If it weren't for the fact that it is diluted so far down there is nothing of the original substance remaining, this would be really disgusting and rather frightening to give to a pet.

So as timskitties also pointed out, nosodes won't interact with a regular vaccination. Because there is nothing in the nosode to begin with.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 10:36 AM
 
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Something else.

Many proponents claim that homeopathic products resemble vaccines because both provide a small stimulus that triggers an immune response. According to opponents this comparison is not valid. The amounts of active ingredients in vaccines are much greater and can be measured. Moreover, immunizations produce antibodies whose concentration in the blood can be measured, but high-dilution homeopathic products produce no measurable response. In addition, vaccines are used preventively, not for curing symptoms
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