Best diet for cat with calcium oxalte crystals - Cat Forum : Cat Discussion Forums
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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Best diet for cat with calcium oxalte crystals

Raven (2 years, neutered) recently started urinating on my bed and carpeting. Her urine culture was negative. Her urinalysis was positive was positive for calcium oxalate crystals. I had been feeding him a diet of 50% wet (Petguard) and 50% dry (Purina One but recently changed to Evo).

My vet's recommendations were:
1 - Hill's Prescription Diet c/d (wet or dry) "for the rest of Lily's life."
2 - No other types of wet food because "they can cause crystals too."
3 - It would be OK to feed my other cat the Hill's c/d.

My internet searching led to the following recommendations:
1 - Do not use the Hill's Prescription diet for more than 4 weeks.
2 - Feed wet food only to ensure adequate water - no dry food.
3 - No fish.
4 - Limit feeds to only twice a day .

According the Hills website (sciencediet.com) the Prescription Diet c/d is for struvite crystals not calcium oxalate crystals. The diet for calcium oxalate crystals is Prescription Diet x/d.

At this point I'd rather try the all wet diet rather than the Prescription Diet? Is this a good plan?

Addendum - Other than this I've always trusted my vet. Both my cats got their first physicals done for free because they were rescue cats. When one injured his foot I was only charged for the initial exam. The 2 follow-up visits were free - I only had to pay for the meds.





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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 09:46 AM
 
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Hi!

Questions for you and I hope you don't mind

It would be helpful to know the following:

Quote:
Raven (2 years, neutered) recently started urinating on my bed and carpeting. Her urine culture was negative. Her urinalysis was positive was positive for calcium oxalate crystals. I had been feeding him a diet of 50% wet (Petguard) and 50% dry (Purina One but recently changed to Evo).
Is Raven a male cat or a female cat?

What was the pH when they did the urinalysis?

Has this cat ever been treated for struvites?

Did your vet do a complete chemistry profile and CBC?

Were any X-rays taken?

Is your cat, has your cat been, on any kind of medication for any reason?

How long was your cat getting Purina One before the crystals were discovered?

What exactly are you feeding now?

Are you doing timed feedings or are you free-feeding?

Does your cat still have access to the Purina One? (Is it still available to your other cats?)

How long ago exactly did you stop dry food for this cat and is this cat drinking water now?
(A healthy cat will stop drinking water on a canned diet three days after all dry food is stopped, so I have to ask you this question.)

Are you, have you been, giving any treats or supplements?

Calcium oxalates are unusual in young cats unless they are on specifically acidified diets, or getting acidifying supplements on a regular basis, so kidney function and the body chemistry in general should be looked at for possible connections. Also, food should be selected most carefully, not necessarily based on what most owners are feeding.

If your vet didn't do a complete chemistry profile, you should have one done as soon as possible and, in this situation, you should ask for a blood magnesium value to be included in the profile. (Normally this is not part of the chemistry profile.)

Get a copy of the results for yourself when they are in so you can spend some time studying all the values most carefully. At this point nothing should be overlooked. In addition to any possible out of range values, careful attention should be paid to any and all high-normal and low-normal values.

Oxalates in a young cat are worrisome, so I hope we can talk more about the issue.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 12:11 PM
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as far as I've known, c/d is for struvites and x/d is for oxalate (like you said) but I've feeding either diet for too long will more than likely lead to the development of the opposite type of crystal...

You may want to call and speak to a few different vets, but definately call your vet and ask your specific questions you just asked us. The fact that he(she?) said wet food will cause crystals worries me...

meowmie - one of your comments seems a little off to me:

Quote:
(A healthy cat will stop drinking water on a canned diet three days after all dry food is stopped, so I have to ask you this question.)
this may be true for SOME cats, but way off for others. Some "healthy" cats on all dry food barely drink any water, just like cats eating all canned food may still drink a lot of water... just because.

My cat has been on all canned for a while and still enjoys drinking water on a daily basis. Even though cats in the wild depend on their meals for their moisture intake, this doesn't mean they will STOP drinking water because the dry food goes away. And I'm also curious about the three day rule. Just wondering where that came from.

I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, just that this statement shouldn't be applied to every single cat.

Jessie

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 01:38 PM
 
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Quote:
meowmie - one of your comments seems a little off to me:

Quote:
(A healthy cat will stop drinking water on a canned diet three days after all dry food is stopped, so I have to ask you this question.)

this may be true for SOME cats, but way off for others. Some "healthy" cats on all dry food barely drink any water, just like cats eating all canned food may still drink a lot of water... just because.

My cat has been on all canned for a while and still enjoys drinking water on a daily basis. Even though cats in the wild depend on their meals for their moisture intake, this doesn't mean they will STOP drinking water because the dry food goes away. And I'm also curious about the three day rule. Just wondering where that came from.

I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, just that this statement shouldn't be applied to every single cat.

Just wondering where that came from.

Observation. And I don't mean mine alone. On the correct diet healthy cats don't drink. When a cat drinks on a canned diet, there is a reason, and usually it is not too difficult to figure out why the cat is drinking. Among other things age, general health status and type of food make a big difference.

Some "healthy" cats on all dry food barely drink any water,

This is a tragedy that leads to a complete health breakdown.
Cats that barely drink any water on all dry food should NOT be eating dry food in ANY amount. NO dry food.

this doesn't mean they will STOP drinking water because the dry food goes away

It does. On the right canned food, one that is not overloaded with carbohydrates and contains enough moisture, a healthy cat will not drink.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 02:31 PM
 
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Also, carbohydrates play a very important role in crystal and stone formation. Carbohydrates can help precipitate stones and crystals because they stimulate the pancreas to release insulin, which in turn causes extra calcium to be excreted in the urine.

Dehydration is also a factor because it concentrates the urine, increasing the likelihood of crystal or stone formation.
However, just adding more water to a faulty diet is not enough to prevent crystal or stone formation.

In addition to all this, a certain amount of magnesium has to be present in the diet because magnesium is the mineral that holds calcium in solution.
Magnesium stops (and prevents) the formation of calcium phosphate stones and it is also essential in the fight against calcium oxalate stones.
When manufacturers take magnesium out of the diet, they are going in the wrong direction.

Information:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?a ... w&item=017

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/magnesium.php

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/grains.php

http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-25-2005, 05:14 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the replies.

Meowmie here are the answers to your questions.

SEX - male
URINE PH - 6.5
STRUVITES - none since I adopted him - I do not know about his previous
urinary tract history
CHEMSTRIES/CBC - not done
X-RAYS - none - the vet stated that he usually does X-rays only if the
inappropriate urination does not stop
MEDICATIONS - none
HOW LONG ON PURINA ONE - about 6 months -for the first 1 and 1/2
years his previous owner only fed him Purina Cat Chow - since
learning about the benefits of wet food I've fed my cats 50% wet and
50% dry - Raven prefers dry - about a month ago I stopped
feeding grocery store brands and feeding better quality wet and Evo
dry
CURRENT DIET - only wet foods - the brands I'm feeding are Petguard,
Innova and Nutra
FREE-FEEDING OR TIMED - I stopped free-feeding 5 days ago - I now feed
twice a day
ANY PURINA ONE NOW - no
WHEN WAS DRY FOOD STOPPED - 5 days ago
IS RAVEN DRINKING WATER - both Lily, my other cat, and Raven were
water drinkers - in the last 2 days it seems as if only minimal, if any,
water is being consumed
TREATS - I stopped these 6-8 weeks ago as they seemd to be mostly
corn products - and since my cats are indoor cats I didn't think they
needed the extra calories

I hope that answers your questions. I'd like to add that I have 3 llitter
boxes for my 2 cats. 2 weeks ago I set out boxes with lower sides. Since then Raven has not urinated on my bed. I've only found 3 wet spots on the carpet since the new boxes. I've used odor-neutralizer on any spots that I have found.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-25-2005, 10:49 AM
 
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Thanks so much for the answers. Much appreciate them. I'll be back with thoughts and suggestions as soon as I can.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-25-2005, 04:02 PM
 
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Hi!

My apologies for the long delay.

One more question to make sure nothing gets overlooked. Do you have any plants the kitties could be chewing on?

Now......Before we go any further, please remember this: if you indeed have to treat calcium oxalate crystals with diet, the pH you have to achieve by feeding a special diet is much, much higher than the normal pH for a healthy cat, so the urine and the pH will have to be monitored very closely to make sure the diet doesn’t start producing struvites.
You’ll want to take care of the oxalate problem, but you’ll want to stop before you go too far.

The pH you mention in your post is actually a very good pH for a cat, neither too acid nor too alkaline to make conditions ideal for stone formation. So I wonder why there is a problem with oxalates.
As I said, oxalates are worrisome, especially in a young cat, so I urge you to do the necessary diagnostic work to get to the bottom of the situation. In fact, based on what I see in your post, the safest thing would be to start over with a new vet, possibly a feline specialist if you can find one in your area, who will stay with you and regularly monitor your cat to make sure treatment accomplishes its goal but goes no further.


Quote:
X-RAYS - none - the vet stated that he usually does X-rays only if the inappropriate urination does not stop
I can’t imagine a more uncaring and more unprofessional, more incompetent statement from a vet. Based on this statement alone, you should not continue doing business with this man. Try to find yourself a caring feline specialist and just start over with him or her.

Since you have already made some changes in the diet, the best, safest thing would be to start with a brand new urinalysis and find out what exactly is going on at the time of the testing. Then go from there.
Please also insist on a complete chemistry profile and CBC and ask for an X-ray as well. The diagnostic work should be thorough and complete, with nothing overlooked.
And please do pick up a copy of the bloodwork results for yourself as soon as they are back from the lab. You need to see those results and you also need them for your own files. Also get a copy of the urinalysis results.
(Having copies of test results can be extremely helpful if ever there is an unexpected emergency and the vet who handles the situation has no access to the cat's files.)

This is a very good article for information:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fe ... tones.html

An important sentence from this article:

If the patient is one of the 35% with an elevated blood calcium then steps to control the calcium level and determine why it is high should be taken

(That’s one of the reasons why you shouldn’t try to deal with this problem without doing bloodwork.)

As for diet, you will need the guidance of a caring and conscientious vet if you don’t want to go with a prescription diet.

Here is a list of oxalate producing foods. You might have to avoid those that can be found in cat foods:

Vegetables: beets, eggplant, leeks, sweet potatoes, okra, pepper
Greens: green beans or peppers, beets, celery, collards, eggplant, parsley, spinach, Swiss chard, chives, endive, kale, leeks, okra, rutabaga, summer squash, sweet potatoes, tomatoes
Legumes: beans, soy products including tofu
Grains: wheat germ and whole grains in general
Nuts: all
Seeds: sesame and tahini
Fruits: berries, currants, concord grapes,

Based on everything we know about how dry food affects the body chemistry, I urge you not to feed dry food any more, not even Evo. Cats that think they prefer dry not only adjust to a canned diet, they learn to love it. So don’t be afraid to be without dry food in the house. It will be the best thing you do for your kitties.

One more thing. Since the pH goes up every time food is consumed, to keep the body from becoming too acid, it would be best to continue with the free-feeding. Also, consuming a number of small, frequent meals is the healthiest, most natural way for a cat to eat.

The fact that water consumption has noticeably gone down is a very good sign, hopefully what this tells us is that the kidneys are functioning normally.

If you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-26-2005, 02:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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I have no plants. Raven does like to gnaw on my wooden headboard.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-26-2005, 12:15 PM
 
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Thanks!

No plants, that's good. Hopefully on a different diet you will see a lot less or even no more headboard gnawing.
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