Found another meat source but have a question - Cat Forum : Cat Discussion Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-02-2009, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 797
Found another meat source but have a question

My gang have been doing very well on ther ground chicken diet .. with kidney and liver for variety and extra nutrients , but my problem is its flippin far to go and fetch it .. doable but awkward.

I was in one of our supermarkets on Saturday ...its in a very affluent area and I spotted pets mince that looked more intersting than most "pets mince "packets I have seen.

I asked the buthery manager who seems to know about raw diets ... and she tells me its the organ meats (lung. pancreas, kidneys,liver ,tripe ) from the carcasses they get and then whatever left over meat isnt sold and has discoloured on the shelf. IE that would be beef, lamb,pork..... I cooked up some to see how much fat is in it , but it seems to be minimal.

The problem is tho is that it isnt mixed according to any system .. and they cant really keep track of that . Also its very finely minced.

The cats loved it however and it looks excellant and smells like fresh raw meat should. I can give them necks and chcicken backs to gnaw on but im a bit concerned about the "unknowns" here its more expensive than what im currently buying but its a 20 minute drive instead of a 3 hour one so its obviously more convenient. And taking the price of petrol into consideration ..wellll.........

It

2 boxers Miki & Monty
Boy Cats: Tucker,Freeway,Tyson,Copicat,Mike
Girl Cats : Magic, Garfield, Buggie,Lexie,Spike,Ginger,Blue,Spooky,Rotten, Trouble
Strays: Charlie
2 Conures,2 African Greys,1 Black winged Jardine
carolsclan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-02-2009, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 797
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Sorry couldnt type anymore the forum wasnt alloowing it for some strange reason.

So any ideas on what I should do??? from the sounds of it this diet is perfect and populer I would have to place a permanent order of minimum 50kg a month which is fine .

2 boxers Miki & Monty
Boy Cats: Tucker,Freeway,Tyson,Copicat,Mike
Girl Cats : Magic, Garfield, Buggie,Lexie,Spike,Ginger,Blue,Spooky,Rotten, Trouble
Strays: Charlie
2 Conures,2 African Greys,1 Black winged Jardine
carolsclan is offline  
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-02-2009, 04:19 PM
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 719
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

You could most likely use that as a suppliment to the other stuff, but I would be hesitant. Too much liver can be very harmful, and it also sounds like a LOT of organ meat, and not much muscle meat.

Edit: Are you feeding ground meat only, Carol? If so, you MUST add a taurine suppliment daily (grinding the meat gets rid of the taurine significantly and that can cause heart problems within a few years).

Kelly

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Muzby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 12:44 AM
Premier Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: northern Minnesota
Posts: 4,156
Send a message via Skype™ to laurief
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

You know, raw feeders keep stating that grinding somehow eliminates taurine, but I haven't read any explanation of the mechanism behind that loss. It just doesn't make sense to me. I can understand how Taurine can be lost during cooking, since it is very heat sensitive, but what is it about grinding that causes a loss of Taurine? Does anybody know? Or is this just one of those myths that gets started somewhere and then never dies? Can someone please point me toward a technical explanation of the loss of taurine from ground meats (assuming, of course, that they are meats that contain significant amounts of taurine before being ground)?

Carol, the mince you describe sounds like an excellent addition to your cats' diet, but it does sound like it may need to be supplemented with more muscle meat and bone. Can you get even a ballpark guesstimate from the butcher about the percentage of muscle meat to organ meat in an average batch?

Laurie
laurief is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 01:23 AM
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 778
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Quote:
You know, raw feeders keep stating that grinding somehow eliminates taurine, but I haven't read any explanation of the mechanism behind that loss. It just doesn't make sense to me. I can understand how Taurine can be lost during cooking, since it is very heat sensitive, but what is it about grinding that causes a loss of Taurine? Does anybody know? Or is this just one of those myths that gets started somewhere and then never dies? Can someone please point me toward a technical explanation of the loss of taurine from ground meats (assuming, of course, that they are meats that contain significant amounts of taurine before being ground)?
i read in a book that i have why ground meat has less taurine but can't find it.

When you grind meat you break up protein strands and i think the same would go for taurine. If you break up the taurine molecules then it is not nearly as benificial. Grinding meat can "kill" taurine all together. A strand of taurine molecules is much more benificial than little bits of taurine. Just like ground meat has less taurine than whole meat. Whole meat has more catalase, meaning it has more protein. If you put ground meat in a container with a certain solution that makes catalase come from the meat you get less of the bubbles than if it is whole meat. Something we did in biology this year.
furryfriends251 is offline  
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 09:59 AM
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 719
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Quote:
Originally Posted by laurief
You know, raw feeders keep stating that grinding somehow eliminates taurine, but I haven't read any explanation of the mechanism behind that loss...
Quote:
Taurine deficiency in ground diets
I have no issues with feeding ground food to cats but only as a way to transition them onto whole food (like a bone in chicken breast, a rabbit leg quarter, etc) or whole prey (such as the whole mouse, quail, rat, etc). The reason for this is that ground food, especially whole prey (intestinal bacteria further oxidize taurine) that is ground is deficient in taurine, enough to cause health problems and even death. This study is what I am referring to. Keep in mind this is not a study showing that rabbit meat, a raw diet or whole prey is improper, it is actually showing that ground and ground whole prey is improper.
---------------------------------
A Winn Feline Foundation Report On ...
Role of Diet in the Health of the Feline Intestinal Tract and in Inflammatory Bowel Disease

Progress Report
Investigators: Angela G. Glasgow, DVM; Nicholas J. Cave, BVSc, MACVSc; Stanley L. Marks, BVSc, PhD, Dip. ACVIM (Internal Medicine, Oncology), Dip. ACVN; Niels C. Pedersen, DVM PhD, Center for Companion Animal Health,School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, California
---------------------------------

The remainder of this report is a summary of our attempts to create a "gold-standard" natural diet for cats. After some thought, we decided on a diet made up entirely of rabbit. Rabbits were readily obtained from a rabbitry producing meat for human and exotic animal consumption, and were of comparatively low cost. Mice may have been more appropriate, but procuring and processing this number of mice was not practical. Moreover, in places where rabbits are abundant, feral cats have been known to choose them as their primary prey (Molsher et al., 1999). Since cats eat most parts of their prey and essential nutrients are concentrated in different organs, the rabbits were not skinned, dressed or cleaned, but rather ground in their entirety. The ground whole rabbit diet was frozen in smaller batches and thawed prior to feeding.

Twenty-two purposefully bred cats were used for this study – 13 males and 9 females of two age groups (7 and 20 weeks). All of the cats were neutered during the course of the study. Cats were randomly assigned to one of two groups according to age and gender; one group was fed our raw rabbit diet and the second group was fed a premium brand of commercial cat food that had been tested for its ability to sustain normal growth in normal kittens. The cats were fed free choice with new food placed in their bowls twice daily to ensure that the food was always fresh. The amount of food was continually increased as the cats grew so that only a small amount was left in the bowl after each meal. The cats were housed in a colony with four cats per bay, sharing litter boxes and food bowls, mimicking the situation in many catteries and multiple cat households. The kittens and adolescent cats used in this study originated from a breeding colony that was known to have a number of common intestinal pathogens. Indeed, several different common intestinal pathogens (Cryptosporidia, Giardia and Campylobacter species) were present in the stools of virtually every cat. Most of them also had loose stools to varying degrees, although they were outwardly healthy.

The cats readily consumed both diets, but the palatability of the raw rabbit was noticeably greater; the cats ate it more rapidly and aggressively. After one week in the study, the cats on the rabbit diet all had significant improvements in their stool quality based on a visual stool grading system (developed by the Nestlé-Purina PetCare Company). After one month, the cats on the rabbit diet all had formed hard stools, while the commercial diet cats had soft formed to liquid stools. These differences persisted to the end of the feeding trial. The cats that were fed the whole rabbit diet outwardly appeared to have better quality coats, but objective measurements were not made. Interestingly, we could find no relationship between the type of diet consumed and: 1) the rate of growth, 2) degree of inflammation in the tissue lining the intestinal tract, or 3) the numbers of bacteria in the upper small intestine. The numbers of cats shedding pathogenic type organisms (Giardia and Cryptosporidia species) were on average slightly higher for the cats that were fed the raw diet. Therefore, it appeared that the raw rabbit diet did not have its beneficial effects on stool quality by reducing pathogenic organisms in the intestine, altering the numbers of bacteria in the small intestine or by diminishing the levels of inflammatory changes in the intestinal wall.

Although it appeared that the raw rabbit diet was significantly beneficial for the stool quality and appearance of health in the cats, the sudden and rapidly fatal illness of one of the cats that were fed the raw rabbit diet for 10 months was chilling and unexpected. The affected cat was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy due to a severe taurine deficiency. Moreover, 70% of the remaining raw rabbit diet fed cats, which appeared outwardly healthy, also had heart muscle changes compatible with taurine deficiency and could have developed heart failure if continued on our raw rabbit diet. For the remaining three months of the study, the raw rabbit diet was supplemented with taurine and taurine levels returned to normal.

---------------------------------------------
Alright, so we have that out of the way. You may now be asking "how can we know for sure that grinding causes taurine loss?" Good question! I shall show you something.

Taurine (2-aminoethanesulfonic acid) is a derivative of a sulfur containing amino acid called cystine. If you have lower levels of cystine, you inevitably have lower levels of taurine. This is useful in determining how grinding and bacteria can affect the levels of taurine in food, since the USDA does not measure it in the food database.

Cystine level in chicken, ground, raw is recorded as .188 grams per 100 grams
Cystine level in chicken, broilers or fryers, meat only, raw is recorded as .274 grams per 100 grams

Cystine level in pork, fresh, ground, raw is recorded as .215 grams per 100 grams
Cystine level in pork, fresh, sirloin, boneless, raw is recorded as .261 grams per 100 grams

Cystine level in rabbit, wild, raw is recorded as .274 grams per 100 grams
Cystine level in rabbit, domestic, composite of cuts, raw is recorded as .252 grams per 100 grams

Rabbit contains the same levels of cystine as chicken, and more than pork (wild rabbit does). Not likely that the rabbit meat (before it was ground) used for the study was deficient in taurine and as you can see, all ground meats are lower than their whole counterparts in cystine. I do not have a figure for ground rabbit, but seeing the emerging trend, I would bet it would be lower in cystine in ground form. You may do your own comparisons of different meats by going to The USDA National Nutrient Database and using the search function.
http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/taurine_chmr.htm has some great charts that show the levels of taurine in certain raw foods.
Source:http://rawdiettruth.blogspot.com/200...1_archive.html

Kelly

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Muzby is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 797
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Thanks for the info guys....

Laurie it would seem that the majority of the mix is ground beef, mutton and pork..... once meat is ground for sale it discolours quickly which is why it then goes into the pets mince. Patsy (the butcher reckons about 25% is organ meat) bones are easy to organise .

As I said I cooked a batch to smell and check for fat .. it smelt more like ground beef .... and my nose is sensitive.

Muzby they get whole ox kidney once a week .... for the taurine. And tripe when I can get it.

I can easily get a taurine supplement , but isnt the kidney enough ... ??? its 2 large kidneys .

2 boxers Miki & Monty
Boy Cats: Tucker,Freeway,Tyson,Copicat,Mike
Girl Cats : Magic, Garfield, Buggie,Lexie,Spike,Ginger,Blue,Spooky,Rotten, Trouble
Strays: Charlie
2 Conures,2 African Greys,1 Black winged Jardine
carolsclan is offline  
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 07:01 PM
Premier Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: northern Minnesota
Posts: 4,156
Send a message via Skype™ to laurief
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Thank you for the information, Muzby. Very interesting stuff, and very worthy of consideration and more research. Your cystine comparisons, however, are less convincing. In no example is the cut of ground meat identified, and different cuts can provide vastly different cystine levels (and, by extension, taurine levels). Your ground vs whole comparisons may be comparing apples to oranges in that respect. I will see if I can make similar cystine comparisons of specific cuts of specific meats to help validate the "grinding loses taurine" theory in a more accurate manner.

Laurie
laurief is offline  
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-03-2009, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
Senior Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 797
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Laurie which "cuts" are the better ones ?

2 boxers Miki & Monty
Boy Cats: Tucker,Freeway,Tyson,Copicat,Mike
Girl Cats : Magic, Garfield, Buggie,Lexie,Spike,Ginger,Blue,Spooky,Rotten, Trouble
Strays: Charlie
2 Conures,2 African Greys,1 Black winged Jardine
carolsclan is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-04-2009, 02:36 AM
Premier Cat
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: northern Minnesota
Posts: 4,156
Send a message via Skype™ to laurief
Re: Found another meat source but have a question

Carol, this link will provide you with some more info on taurine content in various meats:

http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/taurine_chmr.htm
laurief is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Cat Forum : Cat Discussion Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome