IU Vitamin E and Vitamin B complex - Cat Forum : Cat Discussion Forums
 
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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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IU Vitamin E and Vitamin B complex

I noticed a lot of people on here don't mention these supplements. I'm wondering if they're really needed? They're included in a lot of raw feeding websites, such as Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basis of Feline Nutrition (created by a veterinarian).

Cats need vitamin E and vitamin B, so why isn't it necessary to give them these supplements?
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 11:59 AM
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If you are feeding using the 80/10/5/5 model there is no need to supplement. You just want to feed a variety of meats and preferably not feed ground
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I am going by that formula. And many sites that recommend adding IU vitamin E and vitamin B complex go by a different formula. My question is, why? Why do they have to add those vitamins and we don't? The only difference I noticed is that in catinfo.org, she was using liver, bones, muscle meat but not kidney. Is that why she's adding the vitamin B and vitamin E?

Does the muscle meat or organ meat such as kidney already contain the necessary Vitamin E and vitamin B?
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 12:11 PM
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Making Cat Food by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM

The Recipe</SPAN>
I use the following ingredients - in amounts listed - per 3 pounds of raw meat/bones/skin.</SPAN>
Please note that I do not recommend this recipe for cats with CKD (chronic kidney disease) - formerly known as CRF.See comments below.</SPAN>

  • 1 cup water (or more if your cat will eat it with more water)</SPAN>
  • 2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white</SPAN>
  • 2000 mg wild salmon oil (a good source of essential fatty acids)</SPAN>
  • 400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use)</SPAN>
  • 100 mg Vitamin B-complex (You may want to start with half of this amount for the first batch. B vitamins have a pretty strong odor and I would not want this odor to deter the cat from eating the food. Once they are eating the food well, then go to the 100mg amount.)</SPAN>
  • 2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose)</SPAN>
  • 3/4 tsp Lite salt when using chicken parts - see below** (Contains potassium and sodium. Make sure that it contains iodine.)
  • Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver. If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.</SPAN>
  • Psyllium - I no longer use psyllium in my cats' food. However, if you want to add some as a fiber source, use 2 tsp if using psyllium husk powder. If using whole psyllium husks, use 4 tsp. If using psyllium, be sure to add at least 1 cup of water to this recipe, if not more.</SPAN>
Most cats eat 4-6 ounces/day. Therefore, this recipe yields enough food for one cat for approximately 10-14 days.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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I don't get it. Why exactly is it that we don't add vitamin E and vitamin B if we're doing frankenprey? What in the 80/10/5/5 model makes up for those vitamins? Because after all, they are very necessary.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 12:24 PM
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That recipe has several things wrong with it.

A) The amount of liver compared to meat. For 3 lbs of meat you should be using 2.4 ounces of liver NOT 4 ounces!

B) You do not want to feed from just one protien source like the recipe says too. Feeding a large variety is healthier for a cat because each type of meat will have differant amounts of vitamins, minerals, etc.

C) You should not feed rabbit as a lone food source. Cats need more fat in their diets than rabbit will give.

D) Why in the world are they ADDING salt?

E) Chicken has too high of bone to meat ratio. Thighs which were listed as one option are about 20% bone. Legs, another option listed, are 40% bone. That is just asking for a constipated cat.

F) Its ground. While some cats will refuse to eat chunks and will only eat ground, the majority of cats are very happy to be eating chunks of meat

G) The recipe isn't balanced. To much bones, too much liver, and no "other secreting organ". The answer is not going to be to add supplements like vitamin B & E. Just make it balanced. Don't grind and you have no need to add taurine. Simple as that
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 08-16-2010, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catlady2010 View Post
I don't get it. Why exactly is it that we don't add vitamin E and vitamin B if we're doing frankenprey? What in the 80/10/5/5 model makes up for those vitamins? Because after all, they are very necessary.
Hi, Catlady!

Taurine, Thiamine, and the Vitamins B and E are a few of the nutrients we know cats need. The knowledge has been gained, for the most part, the hard way. Science hasn't even come close to cataloging all the vitamins, enzymes, amino acids and other nutrients in the bodies of a cat's prey, but we do know that they are completely destroyed with the prey is cooked.

The pet food industry is really just guessing when they add supplements to their heavily processed (and, therefore, pretty much nutritionally dead "food") and it's the consumer's cats (yours and mine) that prove - or disprove - the sufficiency of their supplementation regimens.

Cats have become ill and died from the lack of sufficient taurine and thiamine in commercial pet foods.

The foregoing is fact; the following is my opinion, based off my experiences in the raw-fed world.

People grind and supplement raw food because they are, in a sense, trying to recreate the canned foods everyone is so familiar with. It's more comfortable to the cats - and can certainly be helpful, at least initially, for cats transitioning to raw - and to their owners. Also, it's strongly believed that some nutrients, like Taurine, degrade in the grinding process.

Frankenprey and whole prey raw feeders do not supplement because we're recreating - to a level we find acceptable - the natural diet of our cats. That diet has everything the cat needs, so supplementation is unnecessary and can even be dangerous.

Nutrient profiles differ between prey animals and what is low in one may be higher in another. Chicken, for instance, is high in fat, while rabbit is very lean; quail is high in copper and chicken breast is high in niacin and B6. Since we know we don't know the complete nutrient profile of every animal, we aim for the greatest variety we can get.

Hope this answers your question!
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