Sources of glucosamine? Joint care and percentages questions :3 - Cat Forum : Cat Discussion Forums
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-17-2010, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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Sources of glucosamine? Joint care and percentages questions :3

I'm looking into starting my kittens on raw-feeding within the next few months. I had mentioned in my intro, but for those that don't remember or didn't read it, my youngest kitty [and at the time, my only] had broken a growth plate in his right hind leg, and it had healed funny. He's already gimpy ):
I know that I can get Omegas for his joints from salmon oil or dehydrated salmon treats [which would be a rare treat, as he is a little boy lol]
But here's my trouble..
Glucosamine, however, I've only found mentioned with quail feet, I guess cartilage has a lot of it. We had tried giving him a pig ear once, but he just walked away from it, so I can only assume he doesn't really like pork.

Are there any other things I could look into? Meat is preferable to pills since I would like this to remain as cheap and simple as possible, but I'll take any and all suggestions to make my little boy feel better (:

Oh, while I'm at it, do you have any suggestions for starting kittens on raw? I'm already transitioning them to better wet food and significantly less dry, as was recommended several times around here, which they're absolutely loving :3
But are there any somewhat cheap starter packs that are not ground? All the ones on Hare Today seemed to be ground, or very expensive. I'd like to do part Whole Prey and part Frankenprey.

Oh, and they're 5 and 6 months old now, so I don't know if they'd count as "growing kittens" in the percentage? I tried an online auto-raw-calculator thing, 'cause math was my worst subject. One site told me that after 8 weeks they're no longer "growing", another told me they should be considered at 4% "growing" until they're fixed or a year old. It threw me off so bad
They're both fixed, and have been for a month, but does that really change their diet?

I'm sorry for all the questions! lol It's just so new, and with a tight budget, I want to be very confident before I order a bunch of meat. Thank you so much for taking the time to read all of this! :]
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-17-2010, 10:38 AM
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We actaully still use pills for the glucos/condrit supplements we give our cats/dogs. Our eldest cat is 15 and has pretty advance/painful arthritis in his hips. We mix it with their weekly sardines (we still use canned sardines, 1 can per week for 5 cats/2 chis) -into this we mix glucosamine, condriton, more fish oils, slippery elm bark powder (sometimes the sardine meal give one of our kitties the runs), and L-Lysine (3 of our cats have the herpes virus that flares with major stress). Sometimes we also add some extra taurine.

Now, the SEB & taurine we add are the only things I would say are not really "necessary" supplements. They get plenty of taurine from the meat, and the SEB is really just for the one cat.

I think I heard mentioned somewhere that the glucosamine can be found in brains or eyes? Darn it, I really don't remember. Chicken feet also has a ton... cartiledge, as you said. Chicken wing TIPS are mostly that, and probably easier to find,

Starting kittens is EASY! We switched all kittens new to our home in less than a week. They're such adaptable little buggers.

We mixed their canned food with small, not noticable chunks of meat (we use beef heart to start -cheap and we have a tone of it). For two days, then up the size of the chunks on the third day to chunks they have to chew... normally they chew away and have no issues so the fourth day they get meal sized chunks smeared with canned (and if they have troubles we'll cut them in half after they've tried for a bit).

After a few days of beef heart chunks we add in boney stuff (we use quail as the bone, small, easy to chew bones) -ribs or backs are easiest. You can even smash them with a mallet if they're too hard. After a few weeks we start adding in organ - and TA DA! A raw kitten.

I feed our kittens extra amounts until I see them getting fat. *shrugs* Mia -the newest - is about 6mths and getting chubby.. so we're cutting back the amount she gets a little (doesn't help she steals the older cats leftovers though! little piglet). I figure with a kitten, they do grow til about a year, or shortly after. It won't hurt to gibe them more (altho can sometimes cause the runs if they eat too much) for a while.

Being fixed just means you need to watch their weight. If they're getting fat, cut down the meal sizes a little. Too boney? Up their meals. Easy, really! Let your fingers and eyes be your weight tool. They should have a visible tuck to their waist, and when you lightly run your fingers down their ribs you should only feel ribs if you press gently... if you have to press more than gently, they may be a wee bit chunky. *glares at Mia*

Kelly

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-19-2010, 03:11 AM
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I haven't really researched this a lot, but I believe Glucosamine is found in all joints. So they may be getting enough when they consume most of the bone. This will need more research, but from wiki "Glucosamine is naturally present in the shells of shellfish, animal bones and bone marrow." I have heard of Glucosamine found in joints. That may be because of this random internet info "Glucosamine is often combined with chondroitin sulfate, a molecule naturally present in cartilage. Chondroitin gives cartilage elasticity and is believed to prevent the destruction of cartilage by enzymes."

I would continue to feed your kittens as much, or provide them with a generous amount, food as they will eat. They are still growing and since there is more than one, they are probably racing around chasing each other. This growing and racing burns a lot of calories. If you are noticing them getting a little chunky then you can either cut back or help them play a little more. I believe with canned food it says to take the adult amounts and double it for kittens. Even though canned and raw are different, you can use that as a gauge of how much to feed if you need and actual amount. My cats are about 10lbs and consume 3% of their weight, with is 4.8oz. Little less than a standard 5.5oz can which usually says feed one can per 10lbs. IMO, kittens transition to adults at 1 year.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-19-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Muzby View Post
We actaully still use pills for the glucos/condrit supplements we give our cats/dogs. Our eldest cat is 15 and has pretty advance/painful arthritis in his hips. We mix it with their weekly sardines...
Muzby, may I ask, does the glucos supplement help with the pain your cat has? I have a 12 year old kitteh and she's got a bit of pain in her hind legs as well. She was one of the main reasons I switched to raw, I'm hoping to help her health and keep her around longer.

Where do I get these supplements?

Also, she scoops her food with her tongue, we are working on "biting" the food. I sometimes have to hold it in my hand to get her to bite, not scoop. This way, eventually she can work up to biting in to bone.

I got a meat hammer looking thing and heard about mashing up the bones for the cats to eat. I did that last night but I worried because I wasn't sure if I did the right thing, is she going to choke, is she going to get splinters, is it going to cut up her insides?

I tried to tell myself that this is raw, she would have eaten the bone anyway but I'm still new to this raw feeding and have anxieties if I'm doing it right or wrong.

Since she doesn't know how to eat right, (her teeth are fine, that's not the problem), am I doing the right thing by taking a chicken wing and beating it in to a pulp with the meat hammer looking thing to make the bone pieces small enough for her to pick up? Or am I doing it wrong? I need her to eat bone--I don't have a grinder--I was hoping, if this was the right way, this could be a solution until she learns to pick up the food with her teeth, not her tongue and eat a flippin' chicken wing, in tact, already.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-20-2010, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SerenityFL View Post
Muzby, may I ask, does the glucos supplement help with the pain your cat has? I have a 12 year old kitteh and she's got a bit of pain in her hind legs as well. She was one of the main reasons I switched to raw, I'm hoping to help her health and keep her around longer.

Where do I get these supplements?

Also, she scoops her food with her tongue, we are working on "biting" the food. I sometimes have to hold it in my hand to get her to bite, not scoop. This way, eventually she can work up to biting in to bone.

I got a meat hammer looking thing and heard about mashing up the bones for the cats to eat. I did that last night but I worried because I wasn't sure if I did the right thing, is she going to choke, is she going to get splinters, is it going to cut up her insides?

I tried to tell myself that this is raw, she would have eaten the bone anyway but I'm still new to this raw feeding and have anxieties if I'm doing it right or wrong.

Since she doesn't know how to eat right, (her teeth are fine, that's not the problem), am I doing the right thing by taking a chicken wing and beating it in to a pulp with the meat hammer looking thing to make the bone pieces small enough for her to pick up? Or am I doing it wrong? I need her to eat bone--I don't have a grinder--I was hoping, if this was the right way, this could be a solution until she learns to pick up the food with her teeth, not her tongue and eat a flippin' chicken wing, in tact, already.

The glucosamine and chondroitin probably DO help, along with the Omega (fish oils) that we give him. He still has days that are bad (where he hides because it's painful) but they are less and farther between now that we do the supplements. We got them from a health food store for people. Cheaper and it works just the same!

I would say you can always smash the bones.. but what about using different bones? Ribs are EASY to eat and also look for quail instead of chickens.. I get mine at an Asian grocery store. Many people find them at ethnic stores of all sorts. The bone are softer and easier to chew.

She'll eventually get the hang of it. We also switched a 12 year old, and just took it slow. Every two weeks we'd up the size of the meat chunks so he'd have to build his jaw strength slowly.. he's able to eat large chunks of meat and all sorts of bones now - so keep at it!

Kelly

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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-21-2010, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Muzby View Post
The glucosamine and chondroitin probably DO help, along with the Omega (fish oils) that we give him. He still has days that are bad (where he hides because it's painful) but they are less and farther between now that we do the supplements. We got them from a health food store for people. Cheaper and it works just the same!

I would say you can always smash the bones.. but what about using different bones? Ribs are EASY to eat and also look for quail instead of chickens.. I get mine at an Asian grocery store. Many people find them at ethnic stores of all sorts. The bone are softer and easier to chew.

She'll eventually get the hang of it. We also switched a 12 year old, and just took it slow. Every two weeks we'd up the size of the meat chunks so he'd have to build his jaw strength slowly.. he's able to eat large chunks of meat and all sorts of bones now - so keep at it!
Thanks for the help and information. If I put the piece of food in my hand, she has no choice but to bite it and while she still wants to scoop if I put her food on a plate, every so often I'll see her pick up a piece like a normal cat, biting it up, not scooping. I think there is hope....it's just going to take some time.

I should point out that I am giving them cornish hens so the bones are really small, soft enough to cut through with a knife. The other cats will eat it but she's still not doing so. She sniffs at it, licks it but doesn't eat it. She'll eat raw, that's not the problem, she just needs to relearn how to eat.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'm hoping with the raw diet it can take away some of her pain and maybe bring back some of her kittiness. She's climbing just a tiny bit easier than she has in the past 8 months....not a lot but a little so that gives me a lot of hope.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-26-2010, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzby View Post
We actaully still use pills for the glucos/condrit supplements we give our cats/dogs. Our eldest cat is 15 and has pretty advance/painful arthritis in his hips. We mix it with their weekly sardines (we still use canned sardines, 1 can per week for 5 cats/2 chis) -into this we mix glucosamine, condriton, more fish oils, slippery elm bark powder (sometimes the sardine meal give one of our kitties the runs), and L-Lysine (3 of our cats have the herpes virus that flares with major stress). Sometimes we also add some extra taurine.

Now, the SEB & taurine we add are the only things I would say are not really "necessary" supplements. They get plenty of taurine from the meat, and the SEB is really just for the one cat.

I think I heard mentioned somewhere that the glucosamine can be found in brains or eyes? Darn it, I really don't remember. Chicken feet also has a ton... cartiledge, as you said. Chicken wing TIPS are mostly that, and probably easier to find,

Starting kittens is EASY! We switched all kittens new to our home in less than a week. They're such adaptable little buggers.

We mixed their canned food with small, not noticable chunks of meat (we use beef heart to start -cheap and we have a tone of it). For two days, then up the size of the chunks on the third day to chunks they have to chew... normally they chew away and have no issues so the fourth day they get meal sized chunks smeared with canned (and if they have troubles we'll cut them in half after they've tried for a bit).

After a few days of beef heart chunks we add in boney stuff (we use quail as the bone, small, easy to chew bones) -ribs or backs are easiest. You can even smash them with a mallet if they're too hard. After a few weeks we start adding in organ - and TA DA! A raw kitten.

I feed our kittens extra amounts until I see them getting fat. *shrugs* Mia -the newest - is about 6mths and getting chubby.. so we're cutting back the amount she gets a little (doesn't help she steals the older cats leftovers though! little piglet). I figure with a kitten, they do grow til about a year, or shortly after. It won't hurt to gibe them more (altho can sometimes cause the runs if they eat too much) for a while.

Being fixed just means you need to watch their weight. If they're getting fat, cut down the meal sizes a little. Too boney? Up their meals. Easy, really! Let your fingers and eyes be your weight tool. They should have a visible tuck to their waist, and when you lightly run your fingers down their ribs you should only feel ribs if you press gently... if you have to press more than gently, they may be a wee bit chunky. *glares at Mia*

Thank you, thank you!
What about to start? I've thought about starting how you did, with hearts in their canned food and then slowly easing into other organs and bones, then eventually whole prey.
But would a can of grain-free food in the morning, either a can or frankenprey [feet, hearts, wings, and thighs would be most common on the menu to start, I think] in the afternoon, and a whole quail in the evening be an okay schedule for a little while after they're adjusted?
I can't do pure raw just yet, as I noted in my other thread, they're having some tummy upsets so I don't wanna start this until December at least. That and all we have is a tiny freezer, and if anything I'm worried that this menu would be lacking in some departments.
I thought about grabbing some chicken necks, too, but if they'd be getting enough RMB from the whole prey [mostly quail, maybe mice and rabbit] and the chicken/turkey wings and thighs, I don't wanna overdo it and get the necks, too. I guess I just wanna know they'll have a well-balanced diet before I jump headfirst into this!
Thank you again!


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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 10-31-2010, 01:26 PM
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Whatever works for you, works for you! I found with multiple cats it was just easiest to mix up a whole batch of canned/raw chunks at a time and dole it out as needed.

If they'll eat whole prey already, that's really ideal. We're feeding more and more whole prey because it's just so much better for them!

Kelly

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