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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-30-2015, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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Starting Frankenprey, need help/advice

Hi.

I have a 14 and a half week old kitten named Eros and want to start him on a raw diet.
Before we got him he was being given generic kibble and (cow) milk, so a really bad diet for a kitten. After taking care of his health problems (he had an eye infection which developed into a respiratory infection) I decided to move him onto canned food. Took a while, but he's now happy eating Carny and Christopherus and doesn't ask for kibble any more. He's also used to eating four meals a day now instead of nibbling some kibble here and there. Then I made a discovery. I had come across raw feeding before and I randomly found a chicken wing tip in the freezer when I was looking for ice cream. It wasn't packaged like the other meat so I decided to try feeding it to Eros once it thawed out. He loved it! Silly kitten tried to swallow it whole first, but then noticed that he had to chew it first. XD He's had raw a few times since then.
I started looking up raw feeding and decided that I want him to be on a raw diet since he seems to love it so much. I decided to go with the frankenprey model since I couldn't find the supplements needed for a ground diet (you can't get a lot of things for animals where I live) and I don't have a meat grinder. I did find salmon oil for pets in one pet store though.

I did the calculations with the frankenprey calculator and this is what I got:
He weighs 1640 grams which is about 3,6 pounds. I went with 8% since I read that kittens at his age should get 5-10%.
meat - 3,69 oz/day , 25,8 oz/week
bone- 0,46 oz/day , 3,23 oz/week
liver - 0,23 oz/day , 1,61 oz/week
organs - 0,23 oz/day , 1,61 oz/week

All together he's supposed to get 4,61 oz/day, 32,26 oz/week.
The amounts would change once he gets older of course and after he's past his 4th month his % would be reduced to 6% (since I read that after that it's 5-7%) and then to 3 % as an adult.

So anyway, I bought some meat and came up with a menu for his first week. He gets 4 meals, served at 7:30 am / 1 pm / 5 pm / 9 pm.

Monday
canned / meaty chicken rib / chicken meat / chicken liver+hearts

Tuesday
canned / chicken meat / 2 chicken wing (tip) / chicken meat

Wednesday
canned / rabbit kidney+chicken meat / chicken meat / meaty chicken rib /

Thursday
rabbit meat / canned / chicken meat / chicken liver+hearts

Friday
chicken meat / heart(rabbit, chicken)+chicken meat / 2 chicken wing (tip) / canned

Saturday
chicken meat / rabbit kidney+chicken meat / canned / chicken neck

Sunday
canned / chicken meat / 1 chicken wing(middle) / rabbit meat

I decided to split the liver and kidney amounts in half so that he'd have 1 soft organ type meal, one bony meal and one/two pre eat meal(chicken + something else) per day. Each meal is about 30 - 40 grams (20g for wing tips), which is about how much he eats i one go. It adds up a bit over the daily needed amount, but he's still growing, so I don't see much of a problem there.
I want to have one canned meal for the next week or two to help him move onto raw. Later I'll be replacing the canned meals with other meats like beef, pork or turkey. I got lucky with the rabbit this time, it was on sale and I split the cost with my mom, she got the legs and I got the rest, it even had some internal organs. Sadly rabbit is really expensive (the whole thing cost 8 and that was at a reduced cost) and I can't afford it most of the time, but I couldn't resist this time.

That's what I have for now. I do have some questions though:
- I'm a bit worried about him getting enough bone. I know he can eat the wing tips, but I don't know, if he'll be able to eat the other bones(neck wing middle) at his age. I heard egg shell can be used instead of bone? I could have one meal where I cook the egg white, add the raw yolk and sprinkle the ground egg shell over it. Would that work? I have n idea how I would grind it up yet, so any suggestion would be welcome.
- About the salmon oil,when should I give it to him? It says for a cat you should give 5ml(about one tea spoon)/day. I assume that's for an adult cat, how much should I give to a kitten? Are there any alternatives to the oil?
- This one's about the kidneys. Where I live I have a hard time getting internal organs, but I know that you can buy pork kidneys at the store (sometimes you can get beef too). can I use those for the 5% other organs part?
- Any other food items I could add to his menu?
- I was actually thinking of keeping canned food as a small meal twice a week (half a pouch twice per week). Is that ok? Since I can't grind my meat and you can't buy raw for cats where I live I don't want him to start hating canned food in case of an emergency where he won't be able to chew his food or for when he's old. The pouches would be out of meats that I can't afford/get, like lamb or duck, I also know they sell the Carny ostrich pouches close enough to where I live.

That's all I can think of for now. Me and Eros would greatly appreciate any help we could get on this.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 06:44 PM
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Augh. 3rd time I'm writing this out, because I keep getting logged out. I'm going to cut this short and only answer your questions.

--Bones. I'd rather use the real deal. Crushing bones first with a hammer in a baggie is one idea. Bones contain more than calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and other minerals, it also contains the marrow, which is very nutritious. Hard to find supplementations to replicate that. Or you could try feeding commercial mice, if that's an option, or feed smaller birds.

--Fish oils. I'd rather you read and find something you find reputable in your area. Here's a link to help: The definitive fish oil buyer’s guide

--Pork kidneys. You can feed it, just be sure to freeze it at least -20 C for 3 days minimum first, to rid of possible parasites. Our commercial pork is ok in the states, but more trichenella is something I'd be concerned about where you are. Please read the links below.

Epidemiology of Trichinella
https://www.foodprotection.org/downl...-parasites.pdf

Additionally, you can feed other non-secreting organs besides kidneys. Ex: Brains, thymus, pancreas, spleen, testes are the ones I know of.

--Adding more to the menu besides chicken is a good idea. I currently feed chicken, duck, turkey, beef and pork. Other meats to consider: Cornish hens, pheasant, quail, partridge, venison, goat, buffalo/bison. Raw feeders like the idea of variety of proteins, it helps a cat be less finicky, less inclined to develop food allergies/intolerances, and provides a more rounded diet.

--I also feed a bit of canned with the raw, it helps one of my cat to try his raw meats after licking his plate around, and it helps as I also add in the fish oil supplements in there (with a bit of water).

Hope you get more answers from other members though. I wish there were others from European countries to help you...have you looked for other raw feeders in your area?
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 09:05 PM
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First off, you're on the right track! I've answered your questions below and added in Tabbcatt's comments so I can respond to those as well.

Sorry for the novel

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
I did the calculations with the frankenprey calculator and this is what I got:
The first thing I want to tell you is what I wished someone had told me right off the bat when I started my kittens on raw - don't stress too much.

Seriously. The goal of raw feeding, especially frankenprey, is balance OVER TIME. It doesn't have to be perfect every meal/week. Don't get stuck to the numbers on how much to feed him either, learn to read his signals - so you can tell if he's ACTUALLY ravenously starving and needs a bit extra, or if he's fibbing to get extra nummies.

Adjust how much he gets by how he's gaining weight, but don't give him less until he hits about a year, chances are if he gets a bit tubby he'll just run it off. Most kittens will self regulate to some point. (Some won't, fair notice. My Muffin used to eat until he puked, then do it again and again until I removed his food. I just fed him the same as his brother and no more.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
So anyway, I bought some meat and came up with a menu for his first week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabbCatt View Post
--Adding more to the menu besides chicken is a good idea.
Agreed. You need a minimum of 4 steady proteins, more is better. With raw feeding variety is absolutely key. Each different kind of meat has different nutrients and vitamins, so the more variety the better.

That being said, adding in many kids over a few weeks isn't a bad idea. If you start off his first 4 meals with 4 different meats and he gets the runs the next day you've no idea WHAT caused it. So, for week 1 your plan looks good.

Aim to intro a new meat 1-2 meals per week for the first bit. The more variety he tries the better, but add one at a time. He's in a crucial period where he's learning what 'food' is, if you don't give him much variety he'll never be open to trying new things.

[quote=KittyEros;2591641]I decided to split the liver and kidney amounts in half [/quote

Good plan. You're right on with dividing the organ up, often organs can upset their tummies, so smaller amounts at first is a good bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
I want to have one canned meal for the next week or two to help him move onto raw.
IMO frankenprey feeding is all about getting what you can when you can. buy bulk when you can afford it, and store for later. I'm lucky enough to have a company locally I can order from, I order an extra 3-5 lbs every month, and then when I really need to I can take a 'free' month when my budget is kinda rough. Keep your variety in mind, but know that if you have a really bad month eating only chicken won't hurt him - every month is a no-no, and really try not to do it, but do the best you can with what you're given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
- I'm a bit worried about him getting enough bone.
Bones. I'd rather use the real deal. Crushing bones first with a hammer in a baggie is one idea. Bones contain more than calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and other minerals, it also contains the marrow, which is very nutritious. Hard to find supplementations to replicate that. Or you could try feeding commercial mice, if that's an option, or feed smaller birds.

I'm with Tabbcatt - real bones are the best. Crushed eggshells are ok, but it's very much a stop-gap. Since growing kittens need calcium more than an adult cat would, this is a pretty important piece as well.

He can definitely do wing tips, the middle bit of the wing (with two bones), chicken ribs, and Cornish hen bones (except the leg bones).

You might need to crush the bones to start with, use a hammer or meat mallet to pulverize them within the meat, but try and let him crunch some of it as it'll build up his jaw strength. When you feed bone in meals with crushed bones to kittens, IMO, you need to be present for supervision. Don't step in unless he's truly and honestly in trouble. Coughing stuff up to try again is normal, don't interfere unless he's truly in distress. But you should be there in case a piece of bone gets wedged in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
- About the salmon oil,when should I give it to him? It says for a cat you should give 5ml(about one tea spoon)/day. I assume that's for an adult cat, how much should I give to a kitten? Are there any alternatives to the oil?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabbCatt View Post
--Fish oils. I'd rather you read and find something you find reputable in your area. Here's a link to help: The definitive fish oil buyer’s guide
If good salmon oil is out of your range you can buy whitefish/herring/sardines in WATER to give him. Don't get the 'in oil' or 'spiced' varieties. IMO feeding small fish whole is a good idea for him all around. There's tons of vitamins/nutrients in fish - but no more than twice a month and avoid large fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
- This one's about the kidneys. Where I live I have a hard time getting internal organs, but I know that you can buy pork kidneys at the store (sometimes you can get beef too). can I use those for the 5% other organs part?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabbCatt View Post
--Pork kidneys. You can feed it
Tabbcatt has good points on this as well (most things really ).

I will note that while Trichinella is a risk...it's a fairly low one. To the best of my knowledge (and, trust me, I looked) it's never been proven that anyone has caught it from their cat for sure. There was always another possible source. Even if you DO get it, it's only really bad if you're also pregnant at the time - hence the common bit about pregnant women not scooping litterboxes.

that being said, caution is never a bad idea and I'd also suggest freezing the meat to -20 for 2 weeks prior to feeding unless you know the farmer and feel safe eating/feeding the meat without freezing.

I'm also a fan of as many organs a you can get your hands on. Variety is the spice of life - and frankenprey feeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyEros View Post
- Any other food items I could add to his menu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabbCatt View Post
--I also feed a bit of canned with the raw, it helps one of my cat to try his raw meats after licking his plate around, and it helps as I also add in the fish oil supplements in there (with a bit of water).
I'm also a fan of continuing with some canned feedings. That way if you ever go away and have to leave him with a sitter who refuses to feed raw (which has happened to many raw feeding friends of mine who have to depend on friends/family to care for their pets) you have an easy option. A week of canned food won't hurt him, or ruin his diet. Having nothing to feed him because he doesn't think canned is food any more and your family/friends won't do the meat...not good.

Again: variety, variety, variety. The more kinds of meat you can get him the better. My guys REGULALRY get: chicken, turkey, duck, pork, beef, moose/elk/deer, lamb, llama and alpaca, canned food of many varieties (every other week or so they get to split a big can between the 4 of them - ignore the ridiculous guidelines on most canned foods if you're feeding supplementally to a raw diet), and occasionally fish.

You're on the right path for sure - just don't stress and balance it over time.

Last edited by marie73; 09-01-2015 at 02:21 PM.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 09:30 PM
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That being said, adding in many kids over a few weeks isn't a bad idea.
Mostly just the annoying neighborhood kids that no one really likes that much.


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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 09:42 PM
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Lol, that's what I get for replying from work while I'm distracted! XD

I meant many different KINDS.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all the replies. The info helped a lot. ^^

I'm definitely planing to feed bone, I was just worried that he wouldn't get enough calcium since he's still growing. Eros can get through wing tips and ribs without much of a problem. I think the neck/wing middle pieces won't be a problem, if I hammer them a bit first. I was only concerned that he wouldn't get enough from them. In the future I'm planing to buy the whole chicken (sadly you don't get the neck and internal organs with that) and cutting it up. Would the ribs, wing middle and tips be enough bone for 2 weeks? I can get a whole chicken for about 4€, if I'm lucky. Though I also found a store that sold chicken pieces meant for soup (the pack was around 1,40€). It had the neck, back all the way to the tail, some organs (heart, liver and gizzard) and two chicken feet.

For the meat: chicken, turkey, beef and pork are the ones most available to me. Sadly we don't get much variety for humans here either. XD I'm thinking of rotating some of the more expensive meat available to me. I could probably afford a bit of rabbit, lamb, veal and duck every now and then to add to the variety. I looked at quail and wild game and it's just far too expensive (plus you can only buy them pre-packaged), 3 quails cost 21€ and the wild game costs 17€+ for a 500 gram package.
I know of a store that has a small reptile section. I'll ask, if they sell frozen mice as snake food when I go there next. I know that there's a place that sells snake food and it says on their site that they ship as well, but I want to try one first. I don't want to spend 15€ on a pack of mice and then he wouldn't eat it.
I read that some people give crickets as a snack and while those are too expensive, we have a lot of wild grasshoppers that I could try and kill. Our previous cat also liked to eat moths when she could catch them.

The salmon oil is a bit more of a problem. The only one I could find was at a pet store. It's called Grizzly Wild Salmon Oil from Alaska for dogs (250 ml and 1000 ml bottles) and the store brand salmon oil. I haven't seen sardines in water before, but the fresh fish section in a store close by is pretty good and we never had problems with the fish we bought for ourselves. They have fresh sardines for under 4€ per kilogram, about the same price for 1 kg frozen sardines. And what about things like shrimp? We sometimes buy them and I could put a bit aside for him, maybe every once in a while he could get a small piece as a snack between meals or something.

Pork kidney is just the thing that's most easy to get. When I was at the store today I saw bull testicles on sale and I think they have beef or pork brain sometimes. If those are ok, I could rotate between them and the kidney.
I always freeze my meat for at least a few days before feeding and I'm planing to buy enough for two weeks at a time due to limited storage space.

I still have quite a bit of meat left over for next week, the only thing I need is a bit if chicken breast.
What I have left over (packages are 40-50 g each):
2 packs of chicken drumstick meat, 2 packs of chicken with a bit of rib, about 5 wing tips, 3 wing middle pieces and 4 wing top pieces, about 15 packs of chicken liver+heart, 2 packs of just chicken liver (28 g each), 1 pack of rabbit lungs, 2 packs of rabbit ribs and the rabbits back broken into 5 pieces (33 g each).

For next week I'm planing to replace the rabbit meat with pork (my mom bought it, so I asked for about 2 meals worth of meat with the fat cut off), replacing the chicken neck with one of the rabbit rib packs and adding the rabbit lung in there (possibly on Tuesday, replacing on of the meat pieces). I don't know if I should try giving him the rabbit back yet, but I might try hammering a piece and seeing, if he'll be able to eat it.
This way I could make the this weeks rabbit days into new/rare meat days and I could give him a piece of rabbit once/twice a week for the next few weeks.

And here's a small update on my progress:
Eros is taking the new diet really well. He loves raw meat and doesn't have problems with the chicken ribs/wing tips. Takes a bit of time, but he gets the job done. It's so fun watching him eat. <3
His poop seems better already. It was always a bit on the soft side, but today is was nice and firm. I think switching him to mostly raw was definitely a good idea.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 12:16 PM
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Hey again,

Good to hear your young kitten already eats bones. Smaller bones no larger than chicken necks or thigh bones are actually fine, my adult cats can't eat anything bigger than that, so wings, ribs are ok. But realize too much bone consumption can result in constipation, too much organ meats cause loose stools, so scooping litter boxes and looking at their stools are a good way to see how your furball is doing. One especially great thing about cats on raw is that their stool odors are virtually non-existent, haha, so scooping daily isn't as awful.

I also wanted to let you know before you go out to the store and buy more meat--save your money on chicken and duck breast for yourself and mom. Cats are actually better off eating thigh meats or hearts, because muscle meats are far richer in taurine. (The harder the muscle works, the more abundant it is in taurine.) A growing kitty will need lots taurine, an essential amino acid they must take in via diet. You don't want a kitty lacking in this, deficiencies for prolonged period of time can cause severe health issues, from digestive upset to cardiomyopathy, retinal deterioration (blindness), etc. A cat cannot store these amino acids or synthesize them like canines do. Therefore, chicken/duck/turkey breast wouldn't be as "healthy" for felines as it is for humans. Oh, and no worries of over-consuming taurine, it's water soluble, so any excess are released through their urine.

Another note, since your kitten is still very young and growing, you don't want to eliminate too much fat from Eros's diet. Cats need moderate amounts of fat (about 40% if I'm not mistaken), for palatability and satiety! Cats also manage to process fats better than humans. They also have no need to worry about cholesterol levels, thank goodness, lol. Basically, you want a cat's diet to be high protein, moderate fats, and very little carbs (under 10% is ideal), so when choosing canned/wet food, be sure to choose those without grains--no soy, wheat, corn, gluten, maybe even rice unless needed to manage GI issues. Most dry food contain these grains especially, which some cats become sensitive to, or even develop other health issues, but that's a totally seperate subject altogether. Just keep in mind that felines are obligate carnivores, so to keep them healthy, you'll need to feed what carnivores are meant to eat....meat, meat, meat! Don't fall for the gimmick of advertisments of fruits and vegetable labels dipicting a "healthy diet" on commercial products either. Total waste of money. Always read ingredient labels. You can learn all about reading food labels on a different section under health and nutrition...there's a lot of threads on that and related topics, too.

That's all I can think of for now, be sure to show us pics of Eros in "Meet My Kitty" section soon Good luck.

Last edited by TabbCatt; 09-01-2015 at 12:21 PM.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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I'll adjust the bone levels/organs depending on what ends up in his litter box. Easy, since I clean his litter box daily anyway.

Ok, I'll go for thighs and drumsticks then. I actually think there's a sale for them at one store.

I don't take anything from the chicken and only cut away the thick fat off the pork meat, the smaller pieces are still there. For canned/pouches he gets Animonda Carny and Christopherus(some flavours). I only use food which doesn't have any grains in it. It's hard to find good cat food here, but I'm happy with these two brands and he likes them.

Thank you and I'll be sure to post there as soon as I can. ^^
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 01:53 PM
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Oh, I forgot to mention...your fresh fish topic. I don't feed raw fish, but use canned fish instead. Raw fish tends to have parasites (again, you'd need to freeze fish to kill the worms off), but it also causes thiamine (B1) deficiencies in cats, so as a precaution, I choose to feed canned sardines made for felines as it contains added vitamins that are lost during the cooking process. Choose small fish with high omega 3 content, like smelt, bristling, anchovies, etc.

I'm sorry, unfortunately I'm not aware of that specific brand of cat food, but I'm glad it's grain-free. I hear Bozita is a good brand, but that's the extent of my knowledge in European cat food brands (that are not available across the Atlantic) here. We probably have a bunch of brands unknown to you as well, the popular brands like Purina, Iams, Eukaneuba, Hills, Royal Canin are on my "Not Ever List".

Last edited by TabbCatt; 09-01-2015 at 01:56 PM.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-01-2015, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Oh, then I guess I'm better off with the Grizzly Salmon Oil. I've heard good things about the brand. Seeing as he's about a third/fourth of his adult weight now, I guess I should reduce the dosage by that much...

I've heard of Bozita, but they don't sell it in my country. They do sell those popular though, even the vets sell them. I knew from the start I didn't want those. I'm just lucky I found some grain free canned for him, even though it's rather expensive.
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