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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I'm not sure how I should word this. As you know I have 2 Siamese kittens, Sam and Suzy. They are little over 20 weeks old now. Sam's eyes are not very cross-eyed but Suzy's is. She looks too funny sometimes. I've taken a few pictures of her when she's VERY cross-eyed, but they are not that crossed all the time.

I know that Siamese more or less are cross-eyed and it's one of their traits, but the question is, how much is too much? Is this something that Suzy will out-grow at some point, or will she always be this cross-eyed? Since Sam has less than her I'm wondering if it's dangerous for her. If it affects her health and eye-sight in any way. And if we might plan on taking a litter, if it's advisable or not if she has such a defined cross-eyed problem.

Any input would be appreciated.

Here's a picture of them both together, now Suzy (to the right) is standing on an angle a bit, but it's pretty clear that she is cross-eyed and have it more than Sam (to the left).

 

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Petra, crossed eyes are a fault in a Siamese, so you wouldn't want to breed her. Too much is when it affects her eyesight. However, I wouldn't breed her under any circumstances. I hope she was not sold to you as breeding quality. :( As long as her eyesight is good and doesn't hamper her, she's a beautiful pet, and it doesn't matter. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
No, she wasn't sold as breeding quality, however there's no difference in Sweden, you pay more or less the same price for breeding quality, show quality and pet quality. Only time the price is lower is if there's some physical problem with the cat.

The breeder wanted to take a litter on Suzy since she has good qualities. That's why the eyes are worrying me. I'm going to show her in september and are going to talk to the judges etc about her eyes. Hopefully they'll clue me in (well after the show since you're not supposed to talk to them until after) about it. Sam and Suzy's mother is a bit cross-eyed too, but the question is if the problems Suzy has will decrease or if it'll stay this much. If she has the same problem as her mother, she's breeding quality, but so far she's worse than her mother.
 

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Interesting fact about crossed-eyed being a fault.
I NEVER would have suspected that...every siamese I've ever come across has had cross eyes.
Learn something new everyday.
In any case, she's beautiful and so are her eyes.
 

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A couple of Frosty's brothers and/or sisters have crossed eyes as well. Most of them are completely white however. Although they all have blue eyes it is mainly Frosty that has the most striking siamese markings. But even his are extremely soft.
I am not sure if Frosty and his litter mates come from Winston's direct descent or not (Winston is the siamese that visits us at supper - an extremely weary kitty) but it definately looks like he/she had something to do with their arrival into this world :D
ps when I look at Frosty's crossed-eyed mates Sugar&Stardust especially! Sabby comes to my mind :wink:
 

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Petra, I think she's beautiful! Perhaps crossed eyes are not considered to be a fault in Sweden. However, the TICA, one of the largest registries, penalizes cats with that problem, and my books (I was a breeder for a few years) also noted that, and said they should not be bred.

Some of the features the judges consider as faults in the US:

PENALIZE:
Malocclusions.
Receding or excessively massive chin.
Sanded or shaved coat.
Belly spots and/or flank spots.
Crossed eyes.
Visible protrusion of the cartilage at the end of the sternum.
Any evidence of poor condition.

WITHHOLD ALL AWARDS:
Evidence of illness, poor health, emaciation.
Visible tail fault.
White toes and feet, or patches of white in the points, except in particolor points.
See Show Rules for rules governing penalties/disqualifications applying to all cats.
______________________

Wouldn't you think that a protrusion of the cartilege would be worse than a white patch? This is the standard for the wedge head Siamese. My cats are Classic and would never be considered by any cat judge, but I think they're beautiful. Appleheads and Classic Siamese would be laughed out of a show. They are just not the "in" type. However, the breeders can hold their own shows.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I'm not going to have a debate about apple heads or wedge heads, I think both are extremely cute and it's sad that not both are approved in shows.

I found some information about the points given to Siamese in show by FIFE (Fédération International Féline) and it only states the shape of the eyes, placement etc. Nothing about them being cross-eyed.

Eyes
Shape
medium in size, neither protuding nor recessed.
Almond in shape and set slightly slanted towards the nose to be in harmony with the lines of the wedge.

Colour
pure and limpid, bright intense blue.
Foreign White must have vivid blue eyes.
I've emailed a reknown breader and asked about that, just in case. FIFE only mention disqualification if the eyes are any color other than blue.
 

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The TICA description was like that too. I copied the flaws that judges are supposed to consider. However, I believe the English Applehead has a different standard, so I assume it varies. I know it varies in Collies.

Since Siamese have become quite inbred in the States, Preossia members are importing some from England. I wish I could afford to have one. I think I would go into breeding again, just to improve the health and conformation of the Siamese here. I love my cats, but over the years, it is my understanding that even our Appleheads have become inbred. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hey, if Suzy *is* ok for breeding I might bring a kitten for ya... but you would have to come and get it from Canada in that case. Or I could find ya another kitten... although not appleheads, dont think they breed them here at all in Sweden, only know of England. :/
 
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