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I don't spay or neuter my dogs either. Miss M? She was spayed as soon as she was healthy and big enough to spay. You missed one of doodlebug's points. Cats are not dogs. You can have intact dogs of opposite genders and not have oops litters galore. Your female dog is only going to go into heat twice may be three times a year (some dogs have 4 month cycles). Your cat on the other hand will be going into heat every 2-3 weeks until she finds a male. As to your kitten plan? Two problems:

1. Free doesn't mean they'll find homes. So now you have multiple females reproducing on your property. And unlike, if they were truly left to their own devices they have basic resources, so the kittens actually have some chance of becoming adults and again, reproducing. Oh, and you also have multiple males duking it out constantly because they all want to be the one to respond to all those females in season.
2. Even if you do find them homes, in the eight weeks you're planning on keeping them? Mama's more than likely already expecting the next litter.

Again, I understand your position. I also have intentionally intact animals, but I don't think you understand the ramifications of keeping a cat intact. Believe it or not, I even get that to you these two cats are not your pets. Not my cup of tea, but I get it and hold no judgement for it, but even by that mentality you need to spay her. This is going to become a problem for you. Intact cats are a nightmare on multiple fronts. Personally, I don't know how breeders do it. So just to sum it up, cats are not dogs. You cannot make the same decisions for one that you do for the other.
 

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A cat in heat will drive you nuts. And the male will too when the female is in heat. Even in another house on your property you will hear them yowling and yes, they will stink up the house. Are you planning on putting litter boxes in the house for them or just leaving them to go where they may? And even if you let one out one day and the other out the next, the female will come into contact with a male on her days out. I guarantee it. Why do you think your traps or your dogs will catch any cat that comes on your property when you already have your barn cats roaming your property?

Sorry, I'm new here and probably should just shut up now.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Doodlebug, they already live in this house, and no, no one will ever use it. I put them in there every night. And yes, I live in a cold climate. And also a yes to having a door on each side.

to your "And a life on continuous heat cycles and oops pregnancies (they will happen, you will not be able to control it like you think you will) and locked in an empty house every other day is not a good one. "

Well I will give it a try. And locked in a empty house every other day is not a good one..really? So, what you are saying is to ALL the people out there that only have one cat and work 8+ hours a day should not have one as it is alone for a good portion of the time...? Mine don't have to be in there every other day, it can be one in there for a few hours, then the other back in the house etc.

Miss M, we'll see:). And they probably will find homes, many people jump on the chance for a free pet, especially a kitten.

Kty78, my dogs (GSD's) know these cats and the cats are very friendly with the dogs. The dogs are smart and know who is not part of their "pack" and will kill them, it has happened before where I used to live as there was a big stray cat problem.
 

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No I'm not saying the words you have put in my mouth at all.

You will obviously do what you want with these cats no matter what we say. You'll learn the lesson the hard way...too bad your female cat will be the one to pay for your ignorance and unwillingness to take some advice from people who know far more about cats than you do. But I guess it doesn't matter because she's just a barn cat, completely expendable and easily replaced.
 

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Well I will give it a try. And locked in a empty house every other day is not a good one..really? So, what you are saying is to ALL the people out there that only have one cat and work 8+ hours a day should not have one as it is alone for a good portion of the time...? Mine don't have to be in there every other day, it can be one in there for a few hours, then the other back in the house etc.
The difference between someone who works 8+ hours a day who owns a cat and you is that while the cat may be alone, he/she will have toys, food, water and a litterbox at their disposal. Nowhere have you mentioned that these expendable barn cats will have any of that. You're completely twisting and taking what Doodlebug said completely out of context. I feel sorry for your cats, both revered pets and lowly barn cats.
 

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And no to the spaying or neutering. I don't spay or neuter any of my dogs either and do not have oops litters
My uncle has barn cats, they have kibble and water and a barn with horses and hay and are locked up at night due to coyotes... and guess what else? They're neutered.

Like already mentioned, dogs aren't cats. The odds of dogs that are not neutered/spayed wandering an area is very slim, let me know the last time you saw packs of dogs roaming the street. It doesn't happen in most parts of North America, that's for sure. The odds of a cat wandering an area and going undetected is incredibly high - feral cats hide, you hardly ever will see them even if they live on your property. They also go a long way to find females in heat. You're comparing two totally different species and circumstances. Cats go in heat often, and are loud and will spray. Have fun with that, it's annoying and smells awful and destroys homes - from ruining drywall to getting under even the underlay in carpets and soaking into concrete.

Instead of being part of the serious over population problem it wouldn't be hard to spay and neuter animals in your care that require it. Cats are one of those animals. Just because they're farm "stock" doesn't and shouldn't mean that they are not responsibly cared for - spaying and neutering is part of that, believe it or not. Of course there are other irresponsible people doing the same thing with outdoor cats (and look where that's got us - feral cats in the U.S. are estimated to be in the tens of millions) but that does not mean you need to be one of those people and hide behind excuses that work for the uneducated and uncaring.
 

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And to shan841's comment of "the population is out of control and thousands of cats and dogs are put to sleep everyday", so? thousands and thousands of cows/pigs/chickens etc etc get put down everyday for food, they have personalities and feeling as well, no different than a cat. It's all a matter of perspective and my cats are not pets and will not get preferential treatment for being a "domestic animal".
Two wrongs does not make a right.

Mahatma Ghandi said; "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" in other words; the way we treat animals is one of the hallmarks of the civilisation that is supposed to seperate us from the other beasts.
You could also try to treat all animals well in stead of using mistreatment of some animals as a justification for not caring for the pets you are responsible for because you made the decision to take them on.
Reading your twisted reasoning makes me sad because I'm volunteering for a rescue, spending my own time and money to try and clean up the mess of people who reason like you because it saves them effort and money. I wish every member of society would take their own responsibilty.

BTW; I don't eat meat myself but at least cows/pigs/chicken are killed for a purpose. Cats are destroyed for no useful purpose.

Neutering/spaying cats that are not meant for breeding is part of their basic care.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Again, can someone enlighten me on how my cats are mistreated?
They have food, water, shelter, toys, treats, litterboxes, collars, freedom, flea and tick preventative, medecine when sick, get dewormed, have beds, get brushed and have attention.
Oh wait I forgot, since they are unfixed that automatically puts them in the category of uncared for and me labelled as a bad owner.


Just a side note:
Why don't all of you speuter and rescue fanatics spend your time on animals that are actually in need. Cats and dogs are bloody lucky to get humanely euthanised. They could be like cattle who get hung upside down and have their throats slit or male chicks who get launched into a grinder while alive. Where is the help for all of them? Just because they are used for food does not mean they should get tortured and brutally murdered while dogs and cats get the luxury of a needle. Now to me, those animals are in a much greater need of your time and money and thoughts than any dog or cat because it is almost a guarantee that no matter how mistreated a dog or cat is, it probaby does not come anywhere close to those animals in a factory farm.
 

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Oh wait I forgot, since they are unfixed that automatically puts them in the category of uncared for and me labelled as a bad owner.
Proper care is not just food, water and shelter. Neglect is a multifaceted term.

Neglect may include the failure to provide sufficient supervision, nourishment, or medical care, or the failure to fulfill other needs for which the victim is helpless to provide for himself or herself.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Wandering cats are part of the problem; the actual problem is the owners that do not keep intact cats indoors or do not spay and neuter them. Don't care about that? Then that makes you uncaring, and yeah, a bad owner. Your female will go into heat continually, and she will have litters - for every kitten she has, it takes away from other cats that need homes. If you do not want litters - as she is not meant as a breeding cat - then spaying makes sense.

I get that they're working cats, that does not mean they deserve to have litter after litter and constantly go into heat and be at higher risk for cancers. That is not what you want them for anyway, and spaying is a simple thing. You don't have to be a crazy cat lover to see the logic behind it.
 

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If she runs into complications she will be put down. Keep in mind here these are barn cats, NOT pets. They will get basic care and medecine when sick, but if it is something severe like that they will just get put down. IF she was a pet and I actually had a bond with her I would probably opt for a C-section. Animals get pregnant and give birth all the time and have for thousands of years, most of the time it goes well and others it does not, that's just the way it goes.

I think it's this attitude that's riling people up. I know it's starting to irk me. I don't think you're a bad owner, just a misinformed one. However, the way that you're responding is changing that view. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that your tone is due to the fact that you feel attacked - which you actually aren't, people are being much more civil than they'd usually be - and not from either plain and simple unapologetic bad ownership or from the intent to get everyone going. Still assuming that your intentions are honorable, here's the breakdown once again.

- Dogs go into heat every 4 to 6 months. Cats go into heat 2 to 3 weeks, not months, weeks until spayed or bred. That means that for everytime you have to separate your dogs, your dog will have had approximately 5-8 heat cycles. Because of how often they go into heat, it is nearly impossible to avoid an oops litter. I will not include this first one as a failure in your plan because you did not know yet, so were not actively trying to avoid it.

-Unaltered cats a PITA. Your female will yowl, and trust me if that other house on the property is anywhere even remotely close to the one you live in, you'll be enjoying quite the symphony at all hours. Your male will start fighting with any other males he comes into contact with to defend his right to mate. The sounds a cat makes when fighting are equally unpleasant to a calling female. He will also spray to warn "intruders." Since he is not truly free roaming, all of that urine will be concentrated at the other house, and again unless you have considerable and I do mean considerable distance, it's not a pleasant aroma. Not to mention, seeing as you would need to go out there daily to feed, water, and do a general check on them, you would be walking into the stench daily.

-After a while, unbred females go into perpetual heat. This means that one cycle simply won't stop. She will not come out of heat until she's either spayed or bred.

-Perpetual heat will not likely be a problem for you. Simply because, unless we're talking Fort Knox. Your female and male will find a way to each other. They will knock out screens, the whole nine yards. When it comes to mating, cats are not to be underestimated.

-Finding homes is not that easy especially seeing as kitten season crop is coming. Every body and their mother is going to have free kittens available. If you do live that removed, why are people going to go all the way out to where you are when there are probably 3-4 litters if not more in their immediate neighborhood.

-If by some miracle you find homes for some or all of this litter, you're still in a pickle because she will most likely already be pregnant again. A litter 3-5 kittens plus your two is already seven breeding cats within the 4-6 months it will take the litter to reach breeding age, the second litter will bring that number up to twelve breeding cats within 8-12 months, and that's not taking into account the litters that the kittens in that first litter have had reaching maturity.

-You're quickly going to be overwhelmed in vet bills between all the kittening females and the fighting males. The likelihood that you will have numerous females kitten without a hitch is slim, and even having the PTS - as you state you would do in case of a complication - costs money. On the part of the males, you will be dealing with abscesses and other injuries from the constant fighting.

-Working animals need more care than pets. A sick or dead animal cannot do it's job or at the very least cannot do it as well as a strong and healthy animal. A sick or dead cat is not going to hunt for you any better than a sick or dead chicken will lay eggs, or a sick or dead cow produce milk.

I doubt any of this will sink in, but for your sake I hope it does before you come to realize all of this on your own when it's too late and you are overwhelmed.
 

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I think we've all made our points over and over. If it hasn't penetrated by now, it never will...so it's time to lock this thread.
 
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