Not to derail your initial line of questioning, but why do you need to have your cat on a low-protein diet?

If your cat has been diagnosed as CRF/CKD (kidney disease) and your vet told you that your cat "had" to be on a low-protein diet because it would be "easier" on her kidneys, I can tell you that I have not found a single scientific study proving, beyond a doubt, that a low-protein diet is "good" for cats.

In fact, there are studies that show that it is actually a horrible thing for cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. They NEED protein. If you put a cat, especially an older cat, on a low-protein diet, you will see weight loss, and muscle loss as the cat literally "wastes away". Some of the "low-protein diet" studies showed lower kidney values on the cats fed lower-protein diets, but the cats sometimes suffered from weight loss, muscle loss, anemia, and malnutrition!

My own cat was diagnosed as CRF in 2012, when she was 14. My vet gave me the usual spiel about how she "had" to be on a prescription diet, or she would die in approximately 5 minutes (that was how dramatic the vet made it sound).

I put my cat on a fully-raw diet instead. She is now 17, with kidney values lower than they were when she was diagnosed 3 years ago. She's spunky, happy, has a great coat, and she is enthusiastic about eating. Her phosphorus and potassium levels are perfectly fine.

I'm not trying to demonize those "prescription" low-protein diets, nor am I trying to soapbox too hard about a raw diet, but I do personally believe the prescription foods a load of crap. Vets are paid commissions to sell them to their clients - and of course the only place you can actually BUY prescription diets are from a vet! It's a win/win situation for them. Personally, my vet tried to get me to buy all the Royal Canin and Hill's/Science Diet "renal diet" foods. My cat hated all of them and refused to eat more than a bite or a lick.

Even if your cat is not CRF, Tanya's CRF site offers some good insights into cat protein requirements here:

Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Nutritional Requirements of CKD Cats

"Dr Zoran believes that healthy cats should eat a diet containing around 45% protein on a dry matter analysis (DMA) basis. ... This level of intake may not be sufficient for older cats. In "Feeding old cats", Dr Sparkes states that older cats need more calories than younger cats, preferably in the form of protein."

The page goes into the low-protein debate very thoroughly and offers insights on both sides. I really think you should re-consider a low-protein diet for your kitty.

Tanya's site also has very comprehensive tables on cat food, listing the protein %s of many common canned and dry foods:

Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Dry Food Data USA

The charts give protein as a "dry matter basis" analysis, so you should consult this page to really understand what this means - the %s and info on the cans themselves aren't exactly accurate on a dry-matter basis.

Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - How to Use the Food Data Tables

I know it is SUPER overwhelming and there's a ton of info and it's kind of like a tidal wave all at once. It was the same for me when my cat was diagnosed CRF - I was overwhelmed and terrified my cat was about to die. But I did some research, joined a mailing list group, and slowly came to my above conclusions.

In terms of canned food - personally, when my cat is feeling picky or when I have to be away for a few days (my family refuses to feed her the raw food), I give her a rotating diet of canned Weruva, Ziwipeak, Dave's pet food, and Natural Balance (all non-fish varieties). I believe these brands are very high-quality and are overall very good. Other good brands are Blue Buffalo and pretty much most of the grain-free "limited ingredient" foods out there.

I used to feed Merrick canned as well, but recently it looks like a lot of their recipes have changed (read the reviews on the individual varieties on the Merrick official webpage). It looks like they've opted for cheaper "filler" ingredients now, which is sad.

Honestly, the TL;DR of all of this is: give your cat what she WILL eat. It is far more important for a cat to eat SOMETHING rather than nothing, especially for elderly and/or chronically ill kitties. I sometimes give my cat Fancy Feast classic varieties when she isn't feeling great and won't touch anything else. If your girl won't eat the Royal Canin, give her what she WILL eat. It's better to risk higher kidney values (if she is CRF) than to risk hepatic lipidosis.

Try to transition your girl off of kibble, especially if she is CRF. Wet foods are so much better, plus you can add even more water to the wet food to give your kitty even more fluids.

Good luck!

 

I'm not trying to demonize those "prescription" low-protein diets, nor am I trying to soapbox too hard about a raw diet, but I do personally believe the prescription foods a load of crap. Vets are paid commissions to sell them to their clients - and of course the only place you can actually BUY prescription diets are from a vet! It's a win/win situation for them. Personally, my vet tried to get me to buy all the Royal Canin and Hill's/Science Diet "renal diet" foods. My cat hated all of them and refused to eat more than a bite or a lick.

I echo your concerns about a low-protein diet. It goes against everything Ive ever read regarding cat health. But I am not a cat vet, and haven't dealt with kitty kidney issues.


2 other things...

1 Be careful projecting single unsubstantiated experiences, into other scenarios, especially concerning health. There can be a lot of other compounding factors.

2 If you see hints that your vet has nefarious intentions or conflict of interest... Find a new vet.
When our cat had a urinary blockage, took him to the 24emergency vet, treated and they gave us an assortment of prescription UrinarySO food to try. He liked the RoyalCanin brand morsels vs the others in pate.
Back to our normal vet for post op checkup, they vendor for Hills prescription, but didn't give a ****, said stick with what he likes as long as it was one of the big three prescription UrinarySO. Gave us a prescription we could scan-email to chewy and order there.

I really really just think its a lazy/easy/simple way to provide clear instruction to consumers.

With some meticulous research we've since found higher quality healthy alternatives. Still afraid to go cold turkey, and doing a 50/50 mix.

 

Will look up at the rest later, but just wantedto mention that i did end up making a mixture for her of the low protien and the critical care they initially sent her home with. (before knowig her kidney values). That one is 8.5% protien, so its still not terrible i dont think. Still made it warm and soupy, She did take to that a bit better. The way i understand it, and the vet explains it, is the less protien they eat, the less their kIdneys have to filter and ultimately the longer they will last/better they will work. I will definitely check out those links when im on a bigger screen...

 

Dave's Protein and Phosphorus Restricted


Restricted Diet Protein - Phosphorus Chicken Dinner for Cats - Dave's Pet Food Dave's Pet Food

 

Dont think i can find daves here... im in canada... and it wants a zip code :/

but i planned on browsing aorund tonight anyway at whats available here before i stick with one. i noticed though that that one has i think it was 7.5% protien, where hers now has 5.5% (which i had calculated earlier to 27% dry matter, which is higher than her kibble.)

but even at that, im confused on the percentage... like, if she ate a tablespoon of it, 27% of tablespoon doesnt sound like that much at all... but is that even how they mean it? Its so confusing because it doesnt say.... maybe that other site has more info, but as of now im quite confused about it all.

ETA: i do have this to be thankful for today.... with all of these extr afluids... at least shes the cat who is good about the litterboxes!!

 

Looks like you've figured out how to calculate the DMB, but there are more calculations involved when calculating the approximate amount of protein, fat, and carb content of the food.

Have you looked at Lisa Pierson's website? She has good explainations of doing the calculations. Well worth the read in your case.
http://www.catinfo.org/link=cannedfoods#Calculating__Percentage_of_Carbohydrates:


On the topic of lowered protein, I whole heartedly agree with Lakota. Cats, being obligate carnivores, NEED protein. To reduce them sounds really counterproductive, and downright wrong to me.

Dr. Pierson seems to agree, especially regarding rx diets:

"Prescription/therapeutic diet" is another label that is certainly not indicative of a high quality diet or one that is necessary.

These diets represent an area of the commercial cat food industry that is very misleading and, quite frankly, a source of embarrassment for this profession.

Many of these very expensive products contain corn, wheat, and soy which have no logical place in your cat's diet. These diets are often very high in carbohydrates and, of course, all of the dry versions are water-depleted. Many of them also contain by-products as the main - and often only - source of protein.

While by-products can be very nutritious (and this really is the least of my concerns regarding these diets), they are cheaper than muscle meat so one would think that as much as these diets cost, the companies could use a more consistent source of high quality protein. (See by-products on the Commercial Food page for more details.)

Read more about CRF in felines from her website, too.
Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health

Wishing you all the best for your cat.

 

Actually... i went to our regular vet yesterday.... to try and find something thats still okay for her to have but that she would like. and, at least here, royal canin is completely revamping their renal diet. theres 2 kibble choices (shapes and flavours/smells), and 3 wet choices!! I compared the percents and they do contain more protien than the one she didnt like. not insane amounts, but, more.

they have a morsels and gravy choice (turkey, i think), a loaf choice (not too sure on that flavour), and another that i cant quite remember. she really seems to like the gravy more than the other old royal canin recipe. she probably drank a good 2 table spoons of water with gravy in it before even getting to the morsels. shes not too too crazy about the actual morsels part, i dont think.

when i checked again tonight from this morning, all of her food was gone... *but* the problem is not knowing for 100% who ate it. she was picking at the morsels some when i had mixed them up again for her... she definitely likes them more then the old one for sure. still deciding on which kibble. (i know, no kibble is best... but trying not to change TOO much all at once).

the best part is i can even mix and match, because the actual recipe is all the same, but the flavours and textures are different. so even if i try some pate mixed in with the morsels and she likes that, i can do that. i really like the idea of still having safe options for her, but still having options, rather than just the 1 type everyday.

 

Its frusterating that before this all happened they were sharing a bowl... so im really not too sure how much either one of them on their own truly ate before... so im not even sure if her appetite has gone down, gotten better, or stayed the same. overall i mean, not just since being really sick. but, compared to before but when she was well to now... im not sure how much they ate individially at all. makes it hard to know when to worry or not

but i think interest in the food is a big good sign... she couldnt have cared for any food at all last sunday, not even treats.

 

See my vet up until recently didnt make ANY money from us being on the urinary SO (mainly for Simba but Boo ate it too), as i bought it from a different vet closer to my way to work.... but regardless it has gone well (up until recent kidney issues).

i cant help but feel like "feed them protien anyway" sounds like "kill your cat faster" in a way of speaking.... because of the toxic waste or whatever it is that them having protien creates for the kidneys.... in my brain more toxic waste = more kidneys working harder = shorter life span.

i understand what people are saying with give them something they will eat, and i do agree... *but* you dont want to kill them faster by feeding the wrong things either, right?

its all so hard to understand...

i know in the end its all a wash and nobody will probably ever KNOW without any doubt what the best thing to do is.... but thats not comforting with wanting to do the right thing...

i want to do the right thing, not the "best guess".

i dont know if id be hurting things giving her the merrick on fluid days, and sticking to the reduced on non fluid days? I just dont know what is best.

in simbas case it makes sense. give them this food, that increases their thirst, which in turn makes for more dilute urine, which in turn means less likelihood of crystals forming. that makes sense. (or if non prescription people go with give them all wet food to keep things more diluted, altho not a prescription diet that basic science still makes sense). but with this kidney stuff... it sounds like less protien is easier on the kidneys so to feed them less protien, but then other sources are saying its needed, its so conflicting.

at least with the crystals, although the food choice may conflict (prescription vs not), there are no sources saying "actually if you give less water its better because <insert reason here>".

its just all so confusing and overwhelming with this protien debate... not here on this forum i mean, but everywhere...

 

i decided to try her on a bit of the AD she came home with originally... since i hadnt seen her eat that much today... she did seem to want that one much better. but, as far as i understand it at least, the phosphorous on that one is at the maximum... the protien was at 44% on the graph on their site (a/d® Canine/Feline Critical Care - Canned)

but i used this calculator online and got i think it was 38% (Dry Matter Basis Online Calculator | Feline Nutrition Awareness Effort).

i feel like i want her to eat alot at least initially to kinda fatten back up a bit... she does go for the renal diet well (the new one), but not *as* well as that AD food, or treats. the other day she got into simbas merrick... it was only a little bit so i let her have it, but she cleaned the bowl... which part of me felt like awesome she had some more to eat, but the other part of me said should i have let her.

this is all so hard to think about...

i was looking at the non prescription science diet chicken food (canada)... that one had 33% protien and 0.7% phosphorous, based on their same calculation that gave the ad 44% and 1%.

would i be donig harm to mix renal and non renal diets? like, say if for example, her renal diet (royal canin) dry matter says 43% (at the max), and this other one says 33% (not sure min or max though), would that mean its protien would turn into roughly 38%? they both had phosphorous of .7%, so im guessing that would stay the same. but theen theres the whole good vs bad protien thing i read before too.. my mind is exploding lol.

all of these options are with extra water added, to warm it up and make it soupy too. not sure if that would ultimately change the dry matter or not, or how in the world i would calculate that.

its hard to shop around when the common sites (whiskas for example) seems to use US based numbers, im not sure if theyre the same here.

it seems like (using this chart anyway http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm ) that as protien goes down, phosphorous goes up. im not sure even which is more urgent... :/

 

i was also considering mixing baby food with her renal food, but baby food has LOTS of protien, even compared to the AD... so im not sure how i feel about that anymore...

 

Just read a pamphlet about CKD/CRF...

...saying that once your cat shows signs of illness, that kidneys have lost 75% of their function.... is this number permenant, or *before* any treatment or diet changes take place??

her numbers did improve on IV fluids... so does that mean her function loss would be less now, or is that a permanent loss? it doesnt say... it only says that startling "did you know", but nothing about after treatment or anythign like that... the rest of the pamphlet is about royal canin products and stimulating the cats appetite... but still, what a nerve wracking percentage thing to put on the very first page! yikes...

 

Low phosphorous food other than chicken flavour??

Im looking to mix it up a bit flavours-wise... but it seems like ALL of the safer foods are chicken flavoured, which her vet diet already is... so im looking for something different... but im finding alot of sites dont list phosphorous... i know there is tanyas site about crf and lower protien, but since its US based, we cant get all of those here. im finding some of the other foods are another thing with chicken.... why the obsession with chicken everywhere?? lol. thats not even looking at tanyas site, thats looking at different pet stores in the area (and then trying to look for the contents/analysis)

If you had to choose between these options, to spice things up a bit, which would you choose??

These are my selections:
http://petvalu.com/products/cat/food#!/consumable_type=72&no_cache=true&p=clear&flavor=66

or

Canned Cat Food: Wet & Canned Cat Food Brands | PetSmart

i narrowed it to beef since she seemed to like the merrick beef well enough, and its something other than chicken... any help would be great... i just dont want tofeed her chicken base all the time and have her get tired of it...

been feeling very overwhelmed with thinking about protien amounts and is it safe or not... lowest phosphorous sounds best but lots of places dont list it...

im just curious what you all would choose, at least to start with??

 

If the website doesn't list it and it's not on Tanya's list (actually the list at catinfo.org is more up to date and I believe includes some newer brands) then there isn't anything we can add. Pick some brands that are available to you and contact the company to get the info you need.

 

You can find the list that doodlebug mentioned here: Cat Food Chart from catinfo.org

As for your choices, well...the link to the petvalu site tells me there are 478 items. But if she likes the Merrick beef flavor, why not stick with that? If you want even more variety, your best bet is probably to cross-reference the options on the petsmart site with the list above to see which are low phosphorus.

 

For now I ended up grabbing a couple of the science diet... That seems to be the lowest phosphorous without outrageous protein accounts... Just a turkey and a beef to try for now... Still gonna do mostly vet diet, but this will give some variety anyway

 

Claiken, if I were you, I would follow the advice of people on this forum when they give you suggestions about feeding cats. No one's saying that your vet's not trustworthy, just that vets don't receive much - if any - education when it comes to nutrition. I completely trust my vets, but when it comes to what to feed my cats, I come here for information. Cat nutrition has come a long way over the years, but a lot of vets are pretty traditional in their approach to feeding cats. I know mine are, and it sounds like yours is too.

While it may seem to you like feeding more protein is going to kill your cat, because the explanation the vet gave seems logical, others on this thread have countered with equally logical explanations, with information from catinfo.org, which has been mentioned multiple times, and which is run by a veterinarian.

 

From what I've read so far tho, it doesn't seem like low phosphorous is debated though... Only the protein amounts... I'll know more after she gets her checkup numbers, but she did initially get diagnosed stage 3, which from what I've read the more protein sounds ok still, with stage 1 and earlier stage 2, but the later stages sound not as debated.

That's why I had posted a separate post about reading about 75%loss before they show symptoms, I don't know if stays the same, or if she will stay stage 3? Knowing that info would help with the decision making too.

As far as medically though I absolutely trust my vet, 100% he will tell it like it is. So far we dealt with the emerg vet, but we see her regular for checkup on Tuesday. I'm sure I'll feel better after that.

 

The only info I've read over and over is that cats are carnivores, which I do understand what that means... But I don't know how to tell which is good protein or bad protein.. even reading the whole label won't say good or bad protein... How does anyone really know?

 

If you haven't already, I think you should join the feline CRF forum for your many queries. I don't think most of us are equipped to answer many of your questions, except maybe a few members here, but it seems you've decided to follow and trust all of your vet's directives, which I wouldn't personally do without getting proper answers and feeling good about their logic. Having people you can also talk to about feline CRF and how others have managed it, what knowledge they share with you can also contribute to understanding key points about this disease.

Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Tanya's Support Group

The protein issue seems to be a controversial one, true. But for kidney patients of any kind, whether cat, dog, or human, I do know that water intake is also very important, so I'd really, really, really try to incorporate wet food and make it an exclusive thing and make that my main priority. Most kidney cats acquire this illness because of lack of moisture in their system for considerable periods of time in the first place. Also, the more moisture rich diet you provide, the less you'll have to do subq infusions, which would be a plus, if I were in your shoes. A vet that promotes a dry diet to this cat population would certainly be crossed off my list, but that's me.

 

I would just like to throw this out there.. I am in school now to become a vet tech. My anatomy teacher (a vet) says he never has anything to do with nutrition and food questions, because his schooling really didn't focus on it. Vets learn the basics like how carbs, proteins, lipids, etc break down...But that's about it, because they don't need to know much else in order to make a diagnosis or treatment decision.

I've also noticed how highly promoted vet foods are. We are required to do a hills veterinary nutrition advocate course for part of our mark (compleatly biased to their products), and it seems like whenever the topic of food comes up hills is mentioned. That's just what I've observed anyway.

I'm defiantly not saying that vets don't know their stuff.. But my teacher is a really down to earth guy, and if he's a vet himself, and telling his students this kind of thing.. I would look into all of my options before settling on the first diet my vet told me about.

 

Just wanted to mention re: TabbCatts post... that she is on about 95% wet diet with added warm water (to bring out the flavour and to just add more water overall.)... she picks at the kibble but very little, maybe 2 or 3 (literally) as a tiny snack. and thats not even every day.

I will maybe check out that forum as far as more specific support re: foods. but i do remember reading that if her cat would have eaten the vet diet, she wouldnt have minded using it. and, she *is* eating it... im just looking to add variety.... but in the wet foods form, definitely.

she does get a couple of her favourite dry treats after her infusions, purely as a reward... i know "why give a cat you just hydrated dry treats"... but its only a couple and only on liquids days, and to make her feel rewarded and that theres something in it for her.

with the research ive done so far and looking at the phosphorous levels, i decided on the science diet (commercial versions) because, based on dry matter, its actually on the same level as the vet diet (which was 0.7)... i did ask the vet that took care of her (which, i have to give her credit, she did do *very* well with medically, she was excited to see her numbers come down and overall took very close care)... but i asked her which numbers being elevated would she feel the most/at all and would make her feel ill/not hungry and she said the phosphorous... which is why ive been so insistent on low phosphorous... im not even sure what it is and why it cant be entirely removed (about to look that up)... but especially that number id like to keep lowest for as long as we can, if its what she would feel the most.

before she left, but after her treatment (iv) plateaued, she did reach normal levels again in phosphorous, the other 2 didnt reach normal but came alot closer from their originals when she went in... im really *really* hoping what we are doing at home, and with the everyday providing of wet foods and the fluids, that she is in fact keeping her own... again, ill know on tuesday though.

 

Is your cat's phosphorus level high? A cat can be in kidney failure without a high phosphorus level. Also, the more current thinking is to feed any high quality food and give the cat a phosphorus binder...a medication that binds to the phosphorus and then it is excreted.

 

We don't really know. It did reach normal after constant iv, but we're not sure as far as with what we are doing at home yet...

 

Sorry, I've lost the thread of things a little. Did you ever actually get a hold of a copy of your cat's labs/bloodwork/urinalysis? Or is it just your vet telling you that x value and y value are "high" but not actually telling you the numbers and acceptable ranges?

I would ask for a copy of your kitty's most recent bloodwork/urinalysis. Most vets will provide this, and keeping track of the numbers yourself will help you understand what your cat is going through, and will also make you feel a LOT better. It's overwhelming at first since there are a lot of numbers on there, but once you know what you're looking for, you'll be able to see just how "bad" your cat is or isn't.

As a personal example, my cat has always been "early stage 2" CRF; that's the stage she was in when she was diagnosed 3 years ago and it hasn't really worsened. In fact, some of her numbers have gotten better over time, and she's NEVER had a high phosphorus value even though she is on a fully-raw diet. There was a time when she had borderline Stage 1 numbers! So, you cannot "reverse" CRF or the damage that has already happened to the kidneys, but there IS some leeway and flexibility. Your cat might get a little better over time. She might even have her numbers be close to Stage 2 at times. This doesn't mean that CRF can be reversed or cured... it just means there's going to be ups and downs.

I think you should definitely go with what your cat is willing to eat, whether it's the "prescription" diet or not. I personally do not believe the theory that CRF cats need less protein, as there's no real proof and I know that low protein can do harm to elderly cats. But, again, if your kitty will eat the vet/prescription foods, and you feel better giving them to her, do so! :} The most important thing is to keep your girl eating. Cats can get VERY ill from going a few days without food.

As a final aside, cats are "obligate carnivores". This means they are literally obligated to eat meat. They cannot eat grains, vegetables, or fruits, as they are not set up to digest them properly and get nutrition for them. They MUST have meat. So all those foods out there that tout "vegetables" and "healthy fruits" as ingredients are really just to appeal to us owners so we THINK we're giving our cats some kind of super healthy diet. But the cat cannot digest those vegetables and fruits properly.

Dogs, on the other hand, HAVE evolved the ability to digest things other than "just meat". Dogs are carnivores, but are not "obligate" carnivores. Grains still aren't GOOD for dogs, but dogs have the digestive ability to get nutrition from carbohydrate-based foods. Dogs should still be fed protein-based diets, but they can digest other things as well.

I know this is a lot of info to get through, but it's good to hear your kitty is home and is doing a bit better!

 

We didnt get copies of the bloodwork ourselves from the emerg vet, but she did go over with me the acceptable ranges, and what hers were at. but with what i read last night im not too sure if its the US or international numbers i was given. (we are in canada but the US boarder is practically spit-to-able from our front yard.

so far, as far as appearance, i lke the merrick or the hills AD better, at least the beef versions.... theres white parts in the science diet (fatty parts, maybe)? theres rice flour in it but no actual rice. theres also some yellowish little parts (almost like a spice was sprinkled in). it looks like its supposed to be there as its sprinkled throughout. it was suprising at first though, after learning it wasnt grains of rice. maybe im just used to the more pure meaty appearance of the AD type, and the added extras startled me a bit at first...

they like it, though. (simba got into some of it just now too lol).

maybe ill call merrick tomorrow and see if i can get an answer about the phosphorous about the newer recipes.... last i looked up online was that someone had emialed them to get the numbers but they "didnt know" because the recipes were so new when someone looked into it...

i wish i could find a pure food, like baby food, it will list pureed chicken (for example) maybe broth, and water as the ingredients, and thats it... that would be neat if there were something that basic for cats. but then there is taurine, and added vitamins in the foods too. that part is good. but like, why does it need "locust bean gum"? lol.