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Discussion Starter #1
I just tried posting and can't find my thread.... so I'm doing it again.

Anyway, I'm going to pick up my bulk order in about 30 minutes. It's ground chicken necks, butterfish, and chicken livers. I got the ground necks because my senior dog has trouble eating bones sometimes, and this is my first bulk order. I didn't want to order too much, but I order to feed two dogs and one cat so I have to mix it up for everyone.

My question for the cat is about supplementing taurine. Is there enough taurine in the food I ordered, or should I go down to the Mexican market by my house and buy some chicken hearts? I don't get my next bulk order in for another month. I just want to make sure she will be getting all the nutrients she needs to stay healthy. I'll also probably be throwing an egg in here or there. Anything else I might be missing?

Thanks!
 

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Katie Finlay said:
Anyway, I'm going to pick up my bulk order in about 30 minutes. It's ground chicken necks, butterfish, and chicken livers. I got the ground necks because my senior dog has trouble eating bones sometimes, and this is my first bulk order. I didn't want to order too much, but I order to feed two dogs and one cat so I have to mix it up for everyone.
Um . . . so, what are you feeding the cat? The items mentioned above do NOT constitute a good diet for a cat. Fish should never be fed more than 1-2 times a week at most (it's not really a natural food for cats and can lead to urinary tract problems); cats need to CHEW their food; chicken necks are almost entirely bone, so a LOT of meat needs to be added if you're going to feed them (and there are much better choices); and while liver is essential, it should only constitute 5% of the diet.
My question for the cat is about supplementing taurine. Is there enough taurine in the food I ordered, or should I go down to the Mexican market by my house and buy some chicken hearts? I don't get my next bulk order in for another month. I just want to make sure she will be getting all the nutrients she needs to stay healthy. I'll also probably be throwing an egg in here or there. Anything else I might be missing?
There is plenty of taurine in un-ground (i.e., WHOLE) muscle meat. But you're not feeding ANY of that based on what you list above. You need to rethink the diet if this is really what you're thinking to feed. . . ???
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well, I posted in the last thread that those items were what I had ordered and never was told not to feed them.

What should she eat then? IMO the ground necks have a lot of muscle meat in them already. These have a pretty good meat/bone ratio.

The only thing she's been eating right now is canned Evo, chicken breast and beef stew cuts. What's wrong with adding chicken breast or beef stew with a small amount of liver to the chicken necks? And feeding the fish? I'm not feeding the same thing every day, at least I don't plan on it. That's not how I do it with my dogs. I'm not feeding a ton of liver either. It's cut up in really tiny pieces.

Sorry, I guess I just don't really see what I'm doing wrong. I've been following Kymythy Schultze's book the whole time.
 

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Katie Finlay said:
Well, I posted in the last thread that those items were what I had ordered and never was told not to feed them.
The fish can be fed occasionally. And the diet should be 5% liver. Those are good items. My issue was that it sounded as if this was ALL you were going to feed, which would mean too much fish, too much bone, ground meat, and possibly too much liver.
What should she eat then? IMO the ground necks have a lot of muscle meat in them already. These have a pretty good meat/bone ratio.
No, they don't. The USDA database has chicken necks at 36% bone. 8O And GROUND is not a good idea. If you MUST feed your dog ground stuff (and I don't agree that you must, having converted a VERY reluctant older dog to whole food!), you still need to be giving your dog MUCH more meat to reach the 80% meat/10%bone/10% organ (half of which is liver) ratio.

The only thing she's been eating right now is canned Evo, chicken breast and beef stew cuts. What's wrong with adding chicken breast or beef stew with a small amount of liver to the chicken necks? And feeding the fish? I'm not feeding the same thing every day, at least I don't plan on it. That's not how I do it with my dogs. I'm not feeding a ton of liver either. It's cut up in really tiny pieces.
I wouldn't follow any book. 80/10/10. That’s what you need to know!

It's fine to feed chicken breast -- but unless it's boneless, that's a LOT of bone (20% bone in a breast) on top of a lot MORE bone (the necks). I’m not a fan of necks. You’re paying for lots of bone you do not need. Feed Cornish game hen or quail for bone instead – the bone is more appropriately-sized for cats—or chicken breasts. But understand that if you’re feeding ANY processed bone-in meat, you can either give a small amount PLUS meatymeat at a meal OR give a bone-in meal and then 3 boneless meals in a row. 10% bone is NOT a lot and most cats do better on closer to 5%! That is just not much bone, and it’s a LOT of meatymeat.

And there is no reason to EVER feed ground meat or bone to an animal unless you get it for free. Let them USE their teeth!

Not sure what you mean by “beef stew” – stewing beef? Raw beef? That’s fine.
 

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Oh, and re: taurine -- there is really no more taurine in heart than there is in any muscle meat. That's the DARK meat on poultry, FYI. Heart is great and cats love it, so sure, get some for variety!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I bought ground because my senior has bad teeth, and while she will eat drumsticks no problem, she doesn't always want to. At her age (she'll be 16 in June) I don't want to fight her. If ground bones is what works for her, that's what I'm going to buy.

I feed almost everything. That's just what I got this month for my bulk order. I order my next bulk order (which comes March 20th) on Thursday. Right now my cat won't really eat anything but chicken breast and the beef cuts. The beef cuts are just raw beef pre cut for stew. I basically buy them because it saves me time cutting up the meat. They're nice sized chunks. Boneless.

I feed the dogs 50% bone, 40% muscle meat and 10% organ. I feed a little less bone to one because he doesn't need it to keep his stools firm. This works very well for them. I know the cat needs a lot less bone. 36% bone with extra muscle meat and a little bit of organs sounds like a good canine meal to me. I'm still learning about the cats. I feed raw eggs a few times a week too.

I'm still having trouble getting her to even eat anything. I also bought ground because I know she won't eat bones right now (the cat). She isn't interested. She wants meat. The ground bones resemble meat a lot more than a game hen wing or leg bone.
 

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Katie Finlay said:
I bought ground because my senior has bad teeth, and while she will eat drumsticks no problem, she doesn't always want to. At her age (she'll be 16 in June) I don't want to fight her. If ground bones is what works for her, that's what I'm going to buy.
Then save the ground stuff for her. No reason to feed it to the cats!
I feed the dogs 50% bone, 40% muscle meat and 10% organ. I feed a little less bone to one because he doesn't need it to keep his stools firm. This works very well for them. I know the cat needs a lot less bone. 36% bone with extra muscle meat and a little bit of organs sounds like a good canine meal to me. I'm still learning about the cats. I feed raw eggs a few times a week too.
Whoa! I'm sorry, but this is WAY, WAY too much bone. You are unbalancing the diet to an extreme extent. Please read up a bit . . .

http://www.rawlearning.com/

And I recommend that you join the rawfeeding yahoo group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

I'm still having trouble getting her to even eat anything. I also bought ground because I know she won't eat bones right now (the cat). She isn't interested. She wants meat. The ground bones resemble meat a lot more than a game hen wing or leg bone.
There should be meat ON the bones. LOTS of meat. Get some Cornish game hens. Quarter them. Take one and ribbon the meat a bit to make it clear that it’s edible. Offer it to the kitty in a quiet place where she won’t be bothered. She may not eat it all and the first few times she may not eat the bone, but she will eventually as her jaws strengthen. They can’t GET strong if she doesn’t use them! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hm, I've been feeding the dogs raw since November and did a lot of research beforehand. And when I say 50% bone I mean 50% RMBs. So it's not even entirely bone. I feel very confident that the way I'm feeding is the right way for dogs. Here is where I got a lot of my information:

Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schulze
Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald

This FAQ and Forum:

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.p ... /12/page/1

This board:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/

And my raw feeding co-op:

http://www.socalbarf.com

They have a great message board as well.

The cats, yes, need a lot less bone. The dogs I feel need at least 50% RMBs in their diet. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one. Sorry.

As far as feeding the cat goes, I will get regular bones for her next time. I don't have a lot of money and had to pay my yearly fee that time so I wasn't able to get anything but one RMB source. So I got the ground chicken necks. For right now I don't mind her compromising her chewing strength for the nutrition. I order again Thursday, if they have game hens I'll buy some. Like I said, I got ground also because the cat IS NOT interested in regular RMBs yet (she couldn't care less for them and doesn't eat the meat on them either). I wanted her to at least get a balanced diet while she's making the switch.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I've been re-reading this and I think I see the confusion. I keep calling RMBs "bones." I definitely don't feed 50% bone. I don't think my dogs would ever poop! I feed about 50% RMBs. Does that make more sense to you?

Anyway, I tried mixing canned Evo with chicken breast tonight and it was a no-go. Patience! I must have patience!
 

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I don't "speak" RMBs. IMO that means BARF and I don't think much of that method.

You need to know how much meat is on the bones and plan accordingly. 10% bone is what is in a wild kill. That is all they need. More means a major calcium/phos imbalance, constipation, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I don't feed a particular method. I feed based on the information I've found and what works for my animals. RMBs are raw meaty bones no matter what you feed.

Anyway, 50% of RMBs is about 10-12% bone. No one is constipated and everyone is healthy.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I feed 50% RMBs in the total diet. Not 50% in each meal. Does that make more sense? If not, then I'm not sure. Like I said, this is for the dogs, not the cat.

For the cat, I have a question. I make my next bulk order tomorrow and can order 34lbs of CGH for $35. They're whole. How do you cut them up? My cat is supposed to have 1.7 ounces each meal. I feel like managing organ, meat, and bone will be a little hard with such a small amount. I have no experience with CGH though, so I have no idea how big or small they are. Do you think it's a good idea to get the case of whole birds to cut up and feed to the cat (and probably the dogs too)? If so, what would you recommend feeding during the week? Maybe a wing one meal, and then some muscle meat and organs the next meal? I know wings are mostly skin and bone. What's the best way to feed a CGH?
 

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Katie Finlay said:
For the cat, I have a question. I make my next bulk order tomorrow and can order 34lbs of CGH for $35. They're whole. How do you cut them up?
Poultry shears. Got mine at Target for $5 or so. :)
My cat is supposed to have 1.7 ounces each meal. I feel like managing organ, meat, and bone will be a little hard with such a small amount. I have no experience with CGH though, so I have no idea how big or small they are. Do you think it's a good idea to get the case of whole birds to cut up and feed to the cat (and probably the dogs too)? If so, what would you recommend feeding during the week? Maybe a wing one meal, and then some muscle meat and organs the next meal?
Cut the CGHs into quarters (into halves first, down the spine, and then halve the halves). Feed 1/4 at a meal. A wing is pointless. If a quarter is more ounces than the cat "should" have at one meal, feed it anyway and then just feed LESS at the next meal. That's how mother nature works, after all. ;)

I vary things a lot but in the past few dasy, the basic pattern of my feeding has gone thusly:

Day 1 AM: quail half (similar to CGH 1/4). PM: boneless venison steak + a little kidney

Day 2 AM: 1 mouse. PM: boneless pork + a little liver.

DAY 3 AM: quail half. PM: 1 mouse.

Day 4 AM: 1 mouse. PM: boneless beef.

Day 5: quail half. PM: boneless venison steak + a little liver.

Note that since I feed whole mice, my cats are getting organ from there as well, so I only toss in other organ every so often.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Sounds easy enough! I need to get me some mice too. She's caught those and eaten them before so she should know they're food items. Though right now she's being extremely picky. She'll eat raw beef but stopped eating raw chicken. Brat. I'll have her switched one day!
 
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