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Discussion Starter #1
Hello!
After much discussion in my other topic I decided the best thing to do for my kitties is to go 100% Frankenprey! This is going to be a bit difficult for me as I don't know what's available to me that isn't in supermarkets.

If anyone could please help add to the menu or let me know if I'll be giving them the right amount a week please let me know!

I will be taking the percentages in weekly.

[Max 2.8lbs - 44.8oz - 1270g] [Milly 2.5lbs - 40oz - 1133g]

Feed Kittens roughly 12oz a day between them.

3oz Per Meal

80% Meat (2.4oz) 10% Bone (0.30oz) 5% Liver (0.15oz) 5% Organ (0.15oz) = 3oz P/MEAL
80% Meat (9.60oz) 10% Bone (1.2oz) 5% Liver (0.6oz) 5% Organ (0.6oz) = 12oz DAILY
80% Meat (67.2oz) 10% Bone (8.4oz) 5% Liver (4.2oz) 5% Organ (4.2oz) = 84oz WEEKLY
(4.2lbs) (0.53lbs) (0.26lbs) (0.26lbs) = (5.25lb) WEEKLY
Suggested Foods:
Meats: Chicken, sheep, duck, turkey, cow hearts, beef & chicken chunks, rabbit, chicken wing, wood pigeon.
Bone: Chicken wing (end bit), chicken neck/rib, quail back.
Livers: Chicken, sheep, cow liver.
Organ: tongue, pancreas, kidney, gizzards
Monday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:
Tuesday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:
Wednesday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:
Thursday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:
Friday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:
Saturday -
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Dinner:

I live in Cardiff in the UK and not sure where I can find things like Asian Markets for organs etc ...

I will be starting them on the diet tomorrow as they have no pouches left (I have weaned them on to Raw for the past week with some mince and chicken and they love it). I did notice that the kittens are reluctant to eat the commercial food now and Max had diarrhea because of the Whiska's Beef Pouch (Went straight through him bless him!).

So tomorrow I'll be on the hunt for about a weeks worth of raw and pick up 2 pouches of wet food to put a small amount each day with it to fully wean them off it.

Any suggestions, please let me know!
 

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Two quick things that I noticed:

1. In my experience, it is best to let the kitten decide how much they want to eat. They know best! At Morey & Mitch's peak in growing, they were eating about a pound of food each day. Morey & Mitch were allowed to eat all they wanted 3-5 times a day, the amount of times was dependent on when I was home.

2. The "other secreting organ": Gizzards, tongue, and heart are actually not considered to be an organ in raw feeding - they are considered to be meat instead. Kidney, pancreas, thymus, brain, and reproductive organs are all secreting organs, thus they can be used for the 5%.
 

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2. The "other secreting organ": Gizzards, tongue, and heart are actually not considered to be an organ in raw feeding - they are considered to be meat instead. Kidney, pancreas, thymus, brain, and reproductive organs are all secreting organs, thus they can be used for the 5%.
Heh, this sounds like a discussion amongst zombies :p

My suggestion is to try and find a zoo supplier. We found one here in Holland that is amazing and has EVERYTHING, not to mention they get their meat directly from the farmer and check it all for salmonella and e-coli etc. (not all animals are as resistant to bacteria as cats are). Ultimately this makes it safer for YOU to handle as I personally believe there is more risk to you in handling the raw meat than there is to the cat.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Okay I bought some meat today I managed to get;
Lamb & Pig Hearts
Ox & Pig Liver
Pig Kidneys
Chicken bones

Now, I know that's not a wide variety but that's all I can get locally, tomorrow I'll be going into town to the big meat market to see if I can get a wide variety. The meat I have now will last about two weeks.

Gave the kittens some lamb heart and a little bit of kidney, they ate all of the heart but was reluctant to the kidney, I think that's because they had a chunk of chicken with bone earlier. Later tonight they'll be having 1oz of ox liver and 1oz of pig kidney.

When I was weighing it out earlier I think I done my maths wrong, they're supposed to have around 6oz each a day altogether. I weighed out 2oz of heart, 1oz of liver, 1.3oz of bone and 1oz of kidney.

That's only 5.3oz a day, also their second meal is the liver and kidney together which is 2oz, it looks like an extremely small sized portion but didn't want to add more as I was told if they have too much Liver they can get toxins.

Anyone care to give me suggestions on this matter?

Also, the amount of food I weighed out seems to make only two meals of one that is 2oz and the other is 2oz then bone between meals.

I'm a bit worried!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Another question. They don't seem to be eating the bones, they've cleaned all of the meat off them though!

I just crushed about 6 egg shells as finely as I can to use as a supplement for calcium until they get used to the bones. I was wondering how much do I give to them each a day?
 

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Cute! Any pics? :D

I'm just curious about something: You live in the UK but you guys still use pounds for weight and miles for distance, yet Celsius for temperature! What're you guys up to over there? Hehe.

I think it's so cool that you're starting them off on the right diet. We did the same with our kitten when we got her but she was 10wks old by then and was eating kibble already, boo. By day two with us, she was already chomping the leg bones of the chick, it was awesome and SO FUN to watch. Then she'd go around the rest of the day with a red Joker smile on her little white face :p
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@tanyuh Click to see them! <- Pictures there : D

I tend to use oz more because of baking, I thought americans use lbs more? hehe.

@AuntieCrazy: I've googled how much egg shell to use and I came across this.


The muscle meat Milly would need daily is 127g (4.48oz) so I'm guessing I would need 2/4 of a teaspoon of the powdered egg? Very confusing for me as I'll be using normal teaspoons and not the ones made specially for measuring ><

As for Max he'd need 157g (5.37oz) a day so I think he'd need about 1/3 of teaspoon of it.

Btw, do those measurements looks right to you (for muscle meat)

Here's the rest the calculator said:

Max:
Muscle - 5.37oz
Bone/egg shell - 0.62oz
Liver - 0.33oz
Organ - 0.33oz
Total feed: 6.72oz

Milly:
Muscle - 4.48oz
Bone/egg shell - 0.56oz
Liver - 0.28oz
Organ - 0.28oz
Total feed: 5.6oz
 

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@tanyuh Click to see them! <- Pictures there : D

I tend to use oz more because of baking, I thought americans use lbs more? hehe.
Awwww my kitten Phae looks just like them! Adorable!

And I guess I should have clarified - I am Canadian :p We use the metric system almost exclusively (except for weight, ironically) but I live in The Netherlands now and EVERYTHING is metric so I'm good and used to grams now :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Not much success tonight for dinner.
Gave them 2oz of heart, 1oz of kidney & 1oz liver tonight.

Milly ate a lot more than Max and I think she ate some kidney
Max ate a few chunks, sniffed the kidney and walked away.

I think they were full already though as they had some chicken on the bone earlier and heart.

Might have some luck tomorrow!
Anyone have advice regarding organs? As in how to get them to eat it? I chopped them up very small.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You can drip a bit of tuna juice over the food, or sprinkle cat nip, Parmesan Cheese, Forti Flora flakes, fish food flakes (weird, but it works), or some crumbled up freeze-dried meat treats (Whole Life's chicken works wonderfully on my kitties and I use it at least once a week) over it.

CatInfo.org has a great transition article that might offer you additional tips. Feline-Nutrition has two articles (one and two) that might also have something that'll work perfectly for you.

AC
Okay great, thanks! I'll keep this thread updated daily if possible. And I'll let you know how they get on breakfast time tomorrow, I'm thinking of giving them half of the amount tomorrow morning and then give them some when they're hungry.

They did seem pretty full this afternoon (lunchtime) though so maybe Max was too full (He can be very greedy hehe!). They fell straight to sleep after having some tea tonight (milly ate the most).

I have high hopes though, I have enough liver to last me a month maybe more! (for just £2!) I've got ox & pork liver :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Okay I'm freaking out here, I need some advice.

I've been thinking that the Frankenprey diet is too good to be true. So I tried to find dangers of raw feeding. I came across this;
''For example, an outbreak of salmonellosis caused by tainted commercial dry dog food led to 62 cases of human infection but no reports of the disease affecting animals fed the tainted food.[35] On the other hand, there has been a reported case where two cats fed a raw diet developed salmonellosis and died as a result.''

I'm not so sure on feeding them chicken. Can I have some reassurance that I am doing the right thing? Apparently many vet professionals disapprove of it because of the high bacteria factor and whatnot. I want to know if I am doing the right thing, because I don't think I could cope with the blame if my kittens died from a horrible disease : (


''Cons: Need to figure out for each type of meat and organ what the Calcium and Phos levels are so as to determine how much additional Calcium, collagen, and missing trace minerals to put in the food; limited menu options (pretty hard to find pheasant chunks or mice at the store:); easiest to screw up Ca:phos ratio:('' another one.

"Three researchers from the University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine studied the case of two cats who developed a Salmonella infection after eating a raw meat-based diet. They suffered gastrointestinal upset with loss of weight and appetite. Both cats died. Salmonella in tissue cultures from one of the cats was identified as the same Salmonella found in the raw meat used in the cat's homemade diet.

The JAAHA study also showed documented cases of human Salmonella infection resulting from direct and indirect contact with infected pets, though most were due to contact with contaminated food. Salmonella infection can be acquired from pets through grooming, food preparation, scooping, cleaning bowls and litter boxes, or just petting. In pets and humans, the very young and the very old, as well as those with suppressed immune systems, are most at risk."

"Suitable foods are:

Fresh meat (not pork, bacon, ham or other pig product) preferably raw - including chicken, rabbit, white fish, oily fish, bone (raw), beef, lamb, pigeon, pheasant etc. In the case of chicken, feeding it raw may incur the risk of Salmonella food poisoning (very dangerous to cats) unless you know the source to be reliable. Frozen meat that has been thawed carefully and not re-frozen is a practical alternative to fresh meat. Feeding raw meat from wild animals can incur the risk of intestinal tapeworms. This can be monitored satisfactorily by having faeces samples checked in a veterinary laboratory."


I can't find a reliable source.

Also, pig is 70% of what I can get ...

"You don't need to do raw and canned. I've been feeding my cats raw for over two years now after coming to the same conclusion you did.

I found http://www.catinfo.org a website run by a vet who studies feline nutrition. She's got a recipe for raw on that website that is pretty easy. I grind once a month for my six cats and it takes me only a couple of hours (including prep and clean up)

I have found that my cats actually eat less on raw and produce smaller less smelly stool because they utilize most of the product - no fillers! -

Her recipe is complete and has the additional nutriants that cats need. Just feeding raw meat isn't complete"
 

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Discussion Starter #15
(The question of how much bone to feed is why I thought you might be jumping in a little too fast, as you mentioned you'd given your cats a bone-in meal but I hadn't seen you ask the kinds of questions that typically accompany the first bone-in meal offering.)
Ah yes, bone-in meal. I forgot to mention I had a look at numerous threads here (very helpful) and I rubbed some of the jelly from their pouch food on the bit of bone-in meal for the kittens this morning (First offering). They both cleaned the bones and I did hear some crunching, I think the butcher gave me bones that's slightly too big, although they did manage to nom on the little bones. The butcher gave me some bones he had from parts of a chicken, but sadly no wing tips D:

I'm still a bit confused with bone as I'm not sure how to measure/weigh it out properly bone-in and on its own? I think they had 0.2oz of bone today each, not even that. But that could be due to it being too big. I'm off to get some chicken wings tomorrow and give the little ends off that.

Also, thanks a lot for giving me that information, it's really put my mind to rest. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find the information about the cats/vets etc? You're very informative!

Also, I don't think I'll mention the raw diet to my vet tomorrow, it's not very widely known where I am.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
(The question of how much bone to feed is why I thought you might be jumping in a little too fast, as you mentioned you'd given your cats a bone-in meal but I hadn't seen you ask the kinds of questions that typically accompany the first bone-in meal offering.)
Thanks for all of the information, really put my mind at rest, if you don't mind me asking, how do you know the information about the cats with salmonella and the vets?

Regarding bones.
I completely forgot to mention how I introduced them to it.
What I did was give them some bone-in chicken with some jelly from their pouch rubbed on lightly. They both started to eat it at once with no problems, they both cleaned the bones and I did hear some crunching, although I'm not sure how much bone they had exactly, I think it was the cuts of bone which set them back, as I could only get some slightly bigger bones (Top part of wing I think) as that was all the butcher had left. However I did hear them chew on some part of the bone so that's a good sign.

I did a lot of research into raw feeding, I never go into anything if I don't think I can do it (Especially when my kittens health is at risk). I forgot to mention that I read through most Raw threads here and found some answers I didn't need to question (such as bone offering).

I am however confused about how do I measure/weigh the amount of bone I gave them.

I did a rough estimate this morning and hacked off a 3cm piece each (There was more meat mind).

Do you have a certain way you make sure they get the right amount of bone?

Also, the eggshell thing worked, Maxx even tried to steal some when I was grinding them up! so I'm less worried about the bone for now, but as soon as I get small bones for them I'll be slowly introducing them to it again : D
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The kittens had never been handled and some folks in the neighborhood had gotten together and were planning to poison the cat family.
That's disgusting, I still don't understand why people can be so cruel. I'm so glad there's people out there who care though, like yourself.

Those kittens grew up to be Allen, Rachel and Meghan; but there used to be four of them. In early 2007, I was feeding my cats one of the poisoned and eventually recalled types of food; that food killed their brother, Ollie.
I'm so sorry for your loss! :cry:

There aren't any words for the devastation I felt. I began researching commercially-packaged food products, the history, the practices, the behind-the-scenes info, and then turned my attention to feline nutrition, talking to experts, reading books, digging up reports and studies and examining them in detail. I've continued to do study and learn, and to share this information with everyone I can, to honor Ollie. Otherwise, all I have is the belief (erroneous as it is) that I failed him.
Will all of the help I've seen you give to many members here, including me I'm sure he's proud up there! (While nomming on a huge raw chicken hehe)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
No luck today with Max, I have no idea whether he's full or just not keen on it anymore.
However, he refuses to eat the whiska's pouches now. Kind of confusing, Milly however is munching on everything I give her.

Max had a few very tiny pieces of kidney and liver today with some chicken breast but I have to hand feed him the liver and kidney (Didn't force him, he just ate it from my fingers).

I'm worried that Max won't get the nutrients he needs and I think I'm giving them too much food at a time, I'm finding myself putting 70% of the food back in the fridge (Within a 20-30min time frame).

I warm up the food slightly in a warm bowl but no avail. I also dribbled some of his favorite cat milk ontop but only little success.

Maybe if I put a bit of raw egg yolk on top he might try it?

Btw, the past few days I have been mixing in his food he's used to but doesn't eat that any more.

Do I keep with raw or do I go back to the crappy stuff?
 

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Patience and persistence are key, AmyLittleHands. You have to be strong, and I know you can do it! AC
I know you can too :) And it'll be worth it, trust us!

Also, even if what you're feeding isn't quite "balanced", during the short transition time, it doesn't matter.
Ooo, good point. How long until it becomes an "issue", do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thanks AC & tanyuh. I'm so glad I came across this forum or I wouldn't have known about raw feeding and wouldn't really have any support in the matter.

At the moments the kittens are only getting powdered egg shells for the moment until I get some small chicken bones.

I discovered chicken is their favorite so I'm going to have a find time sourcing chicken hearts!

Max did have a little bit of kidney and liver today which I'm very pleased with (Gave him lots of kisses and cuddles which he loves!) and Milly always eats all of her food so I gave her loads of kisses and hugs which is adores. Gave them some cats milk as a treat too and they're both very happy and content sleeping on the bed right now.

Also, good news. Since I've been feeding them this food they've been pooping less, when they do poop it's not smelly and a firm stool. Also Max's diarreah has cleared up!

I told my vet about the raw feeding, he wasn't keen on it but didn't shun me or anything, he seemed interested to hear about it but he said he won't feed his cats that etc ... which is fine, as long as my kittens are healthy!

He also said that the diarrhea has cleared maybe through coincidence but could be a possibility with the food. (Which I believe).

I need some advice on bones. Would buying ground chicken necks lose it's nutrients? As I think they'll take to that easier!
 
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