It would concern me. It sounds like they are collectors, almost hoarders including stuff other than cats. Call Niecy Nash...(lady from Clean House)

If they are really best friends, they shouldn't be offended in you offering your opinion. I feel sorry for the cats stuck in the basement and the back bedroom. IMO it doesn't seem any better than living at a shelter.

 

IMO it doesn't seem any better than living at a shelter.

Almost anything is better than being stuck in a cage.

 

Have you asked them why those cats are separated? I have six of my own and, for many months, had two more (my daughter's) in one of the spare bedrooms. I didn't like having them separated - and there's no doubt they were lonely - but they fought viciously with my cats and there wasn't any other choice. So there may be a reason these few are cut off from the others. Do your neighbors have any plans to find new homes for them? If it's a temporary thing, that's ok. If not, though, that's no way for a cat to live.

I think an offer to help... to help clean, to help change the litter boxes, to help re-home some of the cats, or even a cheerful "Hey, this weekend's looking to be a great day to build that cat enclosure. What say we start laying out the supplies for it?" would be the best approach. They may very well have the good of the cats at heart and are just getting a little behind on some of the housecleaning for some reason or another.

AC

 

Have you asked them why those cats are separated? I have six of my own and, for many months, had two more (my daughter's) in one of the spare bedrooms. I didn't like having them separated - and there's no doubt they were lonely - but they fought viciously with my cats and there wasn't any other choice. So there may be a reason these few are cut off from the others. Do your neighbors have any plans to find new homes for them? If it's a temporary thing, that's ok. If not, though, that's no way for a cat to live. AC

I did ask them why the two cats were separated, since they are from the same litter (four females) as two of the cats that have free range of the rest of the house. Ray said they don't want to come out. I believe they are so marginalized back there that they are not social. They were feral before they were trapped, spayed and put in the back bedroom.

No, they want to keep all the cats, they aren't looking to re-home them.

You are right, though. If I really want to improve life for the cats, I should push the outdoor cage project. They own their home and have the perfect back yard for it.

 

I sounds like your friends have a hoarding mentality even with cats out of the picture, though I suppose the two often go hand in hand, a lot of hoarders tend to have junk everywhere in their home... what worries me is, when does it end? If they found a litter of five more kittens, would they keep them, too? Hoarders think they're doing what's best, but it really isn't in the best interest of the cats, and I think you're seeing this in the case of the cats in the garage and the bedroom.

Mind you, I have to keep Blaze in a separate room in the house, he pees on anything soft, even his own bedding. Sometimes there are situations where the cat just can't be allowed free reign of the house if they aren't monitored, and the option of re-homing isn't possible; for example, no one wants a cat that pees, and not only is Blaze 15, but he's a biter (out of the blue), he takes months to adjust to new locations, and he takes about a year to become himself around strangers, even if they visit often. I think we do the best we can for him, at this stage in his life. If he was a lot younger though, I don't think this would be a long-term situation.

I also know someone that has two cats shut in a guest bedroom; the cats were feral. They apparently seem content in the room together, and while they enjoy the company of the woman and her daughter, they don't crave it, and they don't like anyone else at all, even other members of that family. It's a tough call, but I suppose between being in their guest bedroom and the option of being at the cat sanctuary, with 600 cats other cats where they'd be stressed out, they figure the cats are better off where they are...

If my best friends were in this situation I'd be very concerned. 15 cats in any home can't be good. I doubt the cats are all getting the attention they deserve, and it impacts your friends lives, as their house smells terrible... I know what that's like, and it isn't something I will ever be willing to live with again after Blaze, no matter how much I love the cat. Life is too short.

I agree, try and motivate them to build the enclosure. It might help the situation. I don't really know what else you can do without alienating yourself from your friends.

 

I sounds like your friends have a hoarding mentality even with cats out of the picture, though I suppose the two often go hand in hand, a lot of hoarders tend to have junk everywhere in their home... what worries me is, when does it end? If they found a litter of five more kittens, would they keep them, too? Hoarders think they're doing what's best, but it really isn't in the best interest of the cats, and I think you're seeing this in the case of the cats in the garage and the bedroom.

I have seen those hoarding shows a few times. It is kind of repulsive but you just can't help looking. Never watched a complete show, only a few minutes because it was too disturbing. The animals were the saddest things in the world.

But yes, my friends - and they really are my best friends - do show some of the same characteristics. They can't use their kitchen to cook because the stove and counters are buried under stuff. They are casual about repairs. The kitchen sink has only a trickle of cold water and no hot water, and it's been that way for years.

Sarah's sister Maureen is also a good friend of mine and once she said to me, "I want to say something, but if told Sarah how I really feel she might never speak to me again."

Carmel, I can completely understand having to keep a cat with special needs confined. It might happen to me someday. Because if you don't keep them, they have no chance at all.

 

With hoarders that have pets, they have so much "stuff" everywhere that they sometimes have pets die and not even know about it. One of those shows found several cat remains, skulls, etc in some woman's house. It was sad and disgusting.

And with 15 cats, how can they really keep track of each cat and it's health?

 

With hoarders that have pets, they have so much "stuff" everywhere that they sometimes have pets die and not even know about it. One of those shows found several cat remains, skulls, etc in some woman's house. It was sad and disgusting.

And with 15 cats, how can they really keep track of each cat and it's health?

Surprisingly, they seem to. Their vet bills are very high. They have treated their elderly cats for conditons and added years to their lives.

There is no doubt at all, none, even being generous: their house is unsanitary. But I would balk at any formal intervention. A more proactive approach would be to try to engage them with actually building an outdoor space for the cats. This can be done with chicken wire and 2x4s - I've built two walk-in cages in my barn. It could be done in a weekend.

 

It would concern me, but I'd have to weigh what sort of life (if any) the cats would have had without your friends. Keep gently pushing for the outdooor enclosure if you can.

 

Keep gently pushing for the outdooor enclosure if you can.

My worry about the outdoor enclosure is that they'll see it as making room for MORE cats.

 

I have trouble keeping a clean apartment with two cats, I can't imagine letting it go and having 15. Since you are the only one who has seen the home, it has to be your call as to whether animal control should be called of not.

 

I second that, my cats are always knocking crap over and such. gotta clean up that cat hair and litterbox, and all that jazz...how do they have a chance to do it with 15?

 

I don’t know much about the condition of hoarding. I’ve heard most animal hoarders have been sexually abused. I can understand the connection in those circumstances!

I do know people who are hoarders of possessions. They’ve had people clean out their houses and organize for them. A year later they are in the same condition. Unless the people get therapy for what is driving them they will never change.

We know a woman in a rescue who cries help all the time and people take cats off her hands to foster then she goes right back out and takes in more cats. I believe she needs professional help also! I refuse to help her anymore.

Unless they get professional help I wouldn’t confront them. If their cats are being taken care of and better off with them than a kill shelter I leave the situation alone. Yes it is very sad but I think you’ll loose their friendship if you do say something.

 

I never thought much about hoarding...now that the media are paying attention to it it seems like one of the odder manifestations of disfunction.

Here is some text from a review of the 'Hoarder' show.

"If you've ever seen A&E's compulsively addictive reality series 'Hoarders' you're probably already familiar with Dr. Suzanne Chabaud, a clinical psychologist who helps chronic hoarders part with their prized possessions -- even if those possessions are, as the show's opening credits tell us, "worthless, unsanitary or hazardous."

Chabaud, who has counseled more than 400 people with OCD (including hoarders), gave us her insights into why it's nearly impossible for family members to help. She also answers the question: Why is dealing with the problem a lot more complicated than just helping somebody clean their house?

Why do people hoard?
"Sometimes after an early trauma in their lives, they start surrounding themselves with objects to create an artificial sense of safety. And, ironically, they end up putting themselves into a threatened condition."

Why is it so hard to treat a hoarder?
The ones who admit there's a problem are easier to treat. The people whose hoarding is part of an obsession -- where hoarding is one of the rituals that they have to manage the fear that results from the obsession -- those people have a great deal of difficulty letting go of particular objects. For example, if one had the idea that all their mail had a contaminant on it, then they may wrap up all those items and keep them in their house so they wouldn't contaminate anyone else.

At what point does someone graduate from being a "pack rat" to being a hoarder?
Hoarding tends to have a very early onset, maybe even earlier than general OCD. There are terms that make it more socially acceptable: "She's just a compulsive shopper" or "He's a pack rat." People may collect things for years and it doesn't really come to people's attention until it becomes disgusting or causes a problem with everyday living.

When it gets to that point, family members realize it's beyond normal social behavior. It's a progressive disorder, so for instance, when a person is a child, they might want every type of a certain doll, which might be considered cute. Or to save every ticket to every concert or every little memento from school. As they become older, it progresses into a severe problem that can impair their health and safety.

(End of text)

One thing hit me right between the eyes. "Sometimes after an early trauma in their lives, they start surrounding themselves with objects to create an artificial sense of safety." When Sarah was only 12 years old, her father died in a horrible farm accident. It was not an easy death, it was a ghastly death. As her friend, I saw how it changed her.
Wow. Without everyone here contributing to helping me understand my friends' situation, I honestly don't think I would have uncovered this.

 

Ahhh a subject near and dear to my own heart. My very best friend who I grew up with, her mother is a severe hoarder. My friend was raised by her father due to the mental instability of mom. She also has schizophrenia, OCD and many other mental issues along with substance abuse.

My friend has her college degree, is a professional and very stable person as is her sister. I am not sure currently how many cats her mother has but it was over a 100 at one point. No flooring, no anything really and floor to floor cat poo. Extremely sad situation.

OK so as soon as my friend came of age (against her dad's wishes as he told her that her mother was too nuts to help) she started legal proceedings to take custody of her mother.

25 years later she still doesn't have custody of her mother. This woman will strip naked and howl at the moon her in backyard. The judges have told my friend 100s of times that she is not a danger to herself (even though she weighs 88 pounds) or others and since her mother is sane enough to refuse losing her independence there is nothing my friend can do.

In those 25 years my friend has spent every last dime she has made ~ with no thought to retirement or her own financial issues. The money has gone to legal fees to have her mother committed along with caring for the cats. She has contacted several cat rescue groups and the moment she finds room for 10-12 of these cats, she kidnaps them. The problem however is 2 weeks later they are replaced with more strays.

Her mother lives outside of the SPCA and even though my friend has been in contact with EVERYONE including mental health officials, SPCA, humane society, heck everyone ~ since her mother lives out of city jurisdiction nobody would lift a finger to help my friend. Currently her legal papers cover 6 full cardboard boxes.

The simple fact is ~ if the person doesn't want help there is no fighting it. If you can convince them ~ well GREAT but if not you are in for a world of chaos. I know the stuff you see on TV is all picture perfect with hoarders getting help but in most cases that is not how it works.

Last year my friend gave up the fight and gave up on her mother. She hugged her, told her good bye and moved across country. The whole situation was keeping her from living her own life. She didn't get married or have kids of her own simply due to taking care of her mother's issues all the time. We had several clean up days, during which her mother would scream, rant and rave at our attempts of cleaning up. The last straw was when my friend brought a rescue group lady in to see the place and her mother drew a gun on them and told them to get off her property and not to touch her cats.


What we know of hoarding is that its a very complex mental disorder that involves other mental issues. There is no way to fix the hoarding until they face their own mental instabilities and illnesses. Making room for the cats as you are talking about a pen outside ~ this will only enable them to get more cats. As long as they have room they will fill that space with the cats if they are true hoarders. There is a difference between a true hoarder and someone who has a good heart but has gotten overwhelmed.

Your best bet is to find out about zoning laws pertaining to pet ownership. If they live in a city limit they can be fined for having so many cats if they don't have a license. All places are different but that would be the first place to look. Then contact the SPCA and see the laws in your state concerning hoarding behaviors. To my friends great disappointment there are no enforced laws in our state concerning it. There is no way you are going to convince a true hoarder to give a cat away without having a professional mental health worker there who understands the disease. At the same time, helping the cats have a better life will only enable them to get more. Its sad, I know but in the long run helping them only makes life miserable for new cats they pick up...and they will.

 

Making room for the cats as you are talking about a pen outside ~ this will only enable them to get more cats. As long as they have room they will fill that space with the cats if they are true hoarders. There is a difference between a true hoarder and someone who has a good heart but has gotten overwhelmed.

Amazing post, Praline, thank you. I am hoping my friends are overwhelmed, rather than true hoarders, despite having other symptoms.

For years and years they lived happily with just 8-10 cats. It's just in the last couple of years that the cat population increased and they began lodging cats in marginal spaces.

There are few people who would sacrifice as much as your friend did to help her mother. All that time, money and effort to help a crazy person who didn't want to be helped. But at least your friend could walk away with her head up and say, "I did everything I could do. It didn't work."

I will remember your advice, thank you. You are speaking from experience.

 

It is an amazing story, just not my story. Its one thing to read it and another to realize I held my best friend all night while she cried at 18 over the situation and I was doing the same when she was in her 40's. A very long history of disappointment. My friend is doing amazing now and we are all very proud of her. I am thankful that her dad and step mother raised her as in so many of these cases children are forced to live in those conditions as well.

Also, keep in mind she was trying to fight hoarding before hoarding was well known. We know a lot more about it today then we did 20 years ago. In our state the laws haven't changed and are rarely enforced. I watch those hoarding shows on TV and animal Cops and they make me sooooo flipping angry. My friend was never able to get that kind of help for her mother.

I have lost my best friend to another State but we speak weekly and email/FB each other. It is difficult but I am so happy for her. It seems she has finally found peace and contentment. She will be getting married very soon as well, which I am thrilled about. she has been dating a wonderful man who is a widower with 3 young kids. She and the kids LOVE each other very much and I couldn't ask for a happier situation for her.

There are several websites dedicated to hoarding.
Animal Hoarding

ASPCA | Animal Hoarding


The hardest thing but most important is to realize the more you help the cats the more you are an enabler. I know it is beyond difficult but in helping the cats ~ you are hurting many others that will end up there. Even bringing a bag of cat food will have them trolling for a new pet.

the best thing you can do is contact a rescue group or the SPCA in your area and work with some professionals in handling the situation. You, as their friend, won't know how to handle the situation and you will find yourself sucked in extremely fast.

One thing that we researched (even though it didn't help in our case) is to video tape their home. After doing so, take them to a neutral location and show them the footage. When someone is just overwhelmed they don't realize how bad things are getting. Think of it as the forest through the trees kind of analogy. To see your pigsty of a house there on TV it hits home more what you are doing.

The reason the law needs to be involved along with SPCA is hoarders have a 100% chance of relapsing. They will have to be carefully monitored.

I did see one show where the hoarder had an extremely happy ending. The SPCA had a zero tolerance with her having any cats on her property (it was a really bad case). A private shelter fell in love with the old lady and adopted HER as well as her cats. She would come to the shelter everyday and help out and pet and love on the cats but didn't have to care for them. This might be something else to look into.

 

I have been around people exhibiting this mental issue. Recently I have been looking into getting a certification to help with this. One book you may want to look at if you can locate it is.

Digging out: Helping your loved one manage clutter, hoarding, and compulsive acquiring by Michael A. Tompkins, & Tamara L. Hartl, 2009.

also is this one

Buried in treasures: Help for compulsive acquiring, saving, and hoarding, by David F. Tolin, Randy O. Frost, & Gail Steketee, 2007

It should cover how to approach the issue and how to help them. It will not cure the issue but works at harm reduction.

 

I have OCD and I like to collect things. Difference between me and an active hoarder is I'm constantly in therapy to PREVENT a home situation like that.

Yes, my apartment does get pretty trashed to the point that I have not a single dish to use and I can't even get to the sink. My room's always full of clothes on the floor even though I have three laundry baskets. It's really a hard thing to fight. I can feel for your friends with it.

I would honestly bring up the situation. As painful as it may be, even if you lose their friendship, you brought it to their attention that it's NOT healthy. It's not healthy for them or the cats. Making an enclosure outside will only give them something else to fill in. I had to move from a 1200sq/ft apartment to an 800sq/ft apartment just to make it more manageable for myself. Without professional help they're doomed. If I go more than a couple months without seeing my behavioral therapist I go right back to collecting things.

It's hard to treat. It's a rough journey. A true friend would bring it up and offer to help and support them through it all. They're probably hoarding because they feel like they need to be needed. I started volunteering to fix this issue of mine, and it's helped immensely! If you can substitute and fill that void they're using the cats to fill then they can be helped.

Given I'm 20. And I've been "collecting" since I was around 9. My mom always called me a pig. She never recognized my OCD (even though I was flipping lights off and on, she'd just say "stop being stupid", heck I had like 50 copies of Pride and Prejudice how is that not ill?). She never offered help. I didn't get help until my BEST FRIEND of 10 years brought it to my attention my senior year of high school. She still ignores my mental illness.

In order to help your friends you'll have to see their life through their eyes. They don't think like you do.

 

In order to help your friends you'll have to see their life through their eyes. They don't think like you do.

This is a really good post, especially the last two lines.

 

Miss Boots, wonderful post and really awe inspiring how you take control of your illness and are learning how to handle it in a positive manner.

The sad fact is many people that have mental illness live in denial of it. When a friend tries to force them to see the reality of their illness they either become violent, shut down or eliminate the friendship.

Animal hoarding is different from regular hoards, it has much deeper issues then just OCD. Granted the OCD is there but usually they suffer from schizophrenia as well. That is why they take the pets in ~ to save them from <insert target of paranoia here>. They feel the animal is safer then what possibly could be out there. There is also a lot of depression and many times senility. In senility (for the old crazy cat lady thing) the old person doesn't realize or remember how many cats she collects. A senile old lady could sit in cat filth and 200 cats and not realize something was wrong. She could look you in the face and say honestly she only has 2-3 cats. There are also several cases of animal hoarding that involve Posttraumatic stress disorder as well as self harming. The animals represent to them stability. That is the core issue to both of those illnesses.

There are many mental diseases that can cause someone to become an animal hoarder, and very likely a hoarder will have 2-3 of these. Its the combination and the lack of human trust that puts them on the road to hoarding animals. Its really sad =(
In every case they love the animals and due to their disease don't see the harm they are doing.

 

Animal hoarding is different from regular hoards, it has much deeper issues then just OCD. Granted the OCD is there but usually they suffer from schizophrenia as well. That is why they take the pets in ~ to save them from <insert target of paranoia here>. They feel the animal is safer then what possibly could be out there. There is also a lot of depression and many times senility. In senility (for the old crazy cat lady thing) the old person doesn't realize or remember how many cats she collects. A senile old lady could sit in cat filth and 200 cats and not realize something was wrong. She could look you in the face and say honestly she only has 2-3 cats. There are also several cases of animal hoarding that involve Posttraumatic stress disorder as well as self harming. The animals represent to them stability. That is the core issue to both of those illnesses.

Bolded part: At one point (up until this last January) I had OVER 50 geckos inside my apartment (currently have 11, and have been slowly rehoming them, every time I have a panic attack). Been there. Done that. I know what it's like to be the one needing help and I posted based on how I took things as. I ignored people. Denied it. Threw fits. Told her she was the worst friend in the world. Collected MORE geckos because of it. I felt insulted and called out for nothing. Here I was trying to protect all these animals, and protect all these things from everyone who's hurt ME, and she wanted to tell me I was the one causing harm? I wanted nothing to do with it.

Six months later, stewing in that anger, I sought help. Can't grow without planting a seed. Until someone brings it to their attention there's no hope. How can someone correct an issue that they don't see?

 

I am in no way a psychologist nor do I claim to be right on a hoarding issue but I do know A LOT about addiction, and this is how I see it:

If my best friend was showing signs of addiction for quite a while and I only saw it progressing, I would NOT take the issue lightly. Telling an addict that they might hurt someone or that it hurts your feelings means absolutely nothing, I can back that up with experience. You need to tell them what they are doing and if they ignore you you need to hit them where it hurts- cut them off if you have to. If they aren't ready for help they will kindly show you the door but when they do get help they will come back and thank you a million times for it. Enabling poor behavior only reinforces it.

I know it is different but hoarding and addiction do have some similar aspects, just take it into consideration.

 

im going to take the hard approach here from everyone else... building a pen is great idea BUT... what if they look on it as an extra space for MORE cats?

There is no garuntee they will use it for the cats they have and not go out and get some more for themselves to fill it...

Im sorry but if speaking frankly to them about the state of the house, the lack of attention, the unsanitariness of having so many cats in a small space isnt working then im for calling in the big guns and nipping this in the bud BEFOR they adopt yet more cats and find there funds running out. When there funds run out those cats will suffer, im sorry but letting it possibly get that far is mean on the cats.

One thing im taught at uni is this: No matter WHAT the owner wants its always whats best for the animal that is important.

 

If I took photos of my apartment right now and posted photos, you'd be shocked how I keep it... Heck I'll post some if anyone wants to see. Lol. I need to clean, I clean once a week, by the next day it looks just like it did before I cleaned. I'm not a horrible hoarder (I wouldn't even consider myself a hoarder, just messy), but being so young it can easily gravitate to the extreme, which it won't, because I know I have an illness and so does my loving hubby. If I wash a dish on my own he glorifies me (with OCD I can't even touch dirty dishes without a panic attack, it's a victory to wash a dish).

 

You have really come a long way. Wonderful.