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I didnt realize till yesterday that raw food area was on the forum.
I need to visit this area more. I came across a raw food chart on
Dr Yassons website I was reading
thru. Thought it might be a good resource for those who are looking into
the raw diet. (im not yet)

http://www.holvet.net/raw_pet_diet.html
 

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That's a new forum, Merry. Some of the members requested it, and we had to wait until Catman came back to get it started. The first posts were transferred from Health and Nutrition.
 

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Wonderful link, Merry.

Although, I think you'll find a lot of us raw feeders don't agree that grains/veggies/fruit have a place in the carnivores diet. ;)

Also, there are studies that show that cats fed an ONLY ground raw diet will develop heart problems and possibly pass away because of them (not enough taurine in ground meats).
 

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Merry, I have to agree with Muzby. That might be a chart OK for dogs; they're not 100% obligate carnivores as cats are. Salmon isn't the greatest, either for cats. Bone meal has its problems. And a crucial point about taurine. Don't feel bad, though.....raw feeding is a whole new world. There's an awful lot to learn. Accolades, ruffles and flourishes, with bowties, top hats and garters for Cat Forum adding a raw feeding forum.
 

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Way too much veggies for a cat. Probably OK for a dog that needs a low energy diet, but too much veggies for a cat. I'd like to see more natural viatmin and mineral sources (such as liver, heart, kidneys etc.) instead of multivitamin supplements.
 

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My guess would be that if you compared 10 homeopathic vets' diets, they'd all be different. And we all know that conventional vets get little training in nutrition for cats! To be honest, I think people making their own cat food are taking a huge risk. The right diet for a cat is not an easy task.

I would not feed my cat raw meat, but I have seen some holistic vets' articles saying that you can cook the meat if you want, but it's not necessary. In that case, I would buy a good brand of complete cat food, that is, canned cat food. These companies have really studied the subject, and the subject is one that needs study.

I do not mean to be critical, but I do not understand why anyone would take the chance, considering the complexity of the needs of a cat. It's not easy. :(

I am not against effective homeopathic medicine, just to clarify. I am treating Blueberry with a medication that has been known to help cats with FIP, and praying it will be effective. If it works, it's good, whether traditional or homeopathic.
 

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Jeanie said:
.... These companies have really studied the subject, and the subject is one that needs study..
Oh, I agree with that 100% -- they've studied to the nth degree exactly how little actual nutrition they can provide for the highest cost. :lol:

Jeanie, I've worked in a meat-processing plant (summers in college) and that meat gets frozen and cooked and frozen and cooked and finally gets canned and sterilized under tremendously high temperature, and so I can assure you that if you feed your cat fresh-cooked meat it will be as safe as canned cat food and tremedously more nutritious.

Raw-feeding has risks that commercial cat food doesn't. But I'm convinced that they can be effectively dealt with by anybody who does their research, so they know proper handling and they know how to make sure the cat gets proper nutrition. IF they do those things, then raw-feeding should be safe for a cat who has no counter-indicated health issues.
 

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Research is the key, of course, and it is the key to homemade foods also. I'm urging research here. Personally, I wouldn't trust homemade food as the cat's daily diet, but I wouldn't tell others what to do.

Tim, are you suggesting that there are no reputable pet food companies? That's quite an accusation. There are a lot of companies, and absolutes are not usually true.
 

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I think what he's saying is that no matter what the company, they need to make a bottom line.

Even companies like EVO, Orijen, etc.. they ( I would assume ) likely know that cats are carnivores and therefore need meat, and yet, they put veggies/fruit/etc in their foods still. Gotta make the bottom line, right? Sure, some of them (EVO) have 95% meat versions now, but they still sell versions with all the stuff cats don't need.

If any company was reputable they'd be doing what is best for the cats. That is feeding them what nature intended and nothing else. Cooked meat loses taurine and other things the cats NEED to stay healthy, sure they add it back in, but why suppliment something that comes FREE in the meat in the first place? Canned and kibble foods cause tooth decay because they can't CLEAN the teeth like raw bones.

A cat diet is NOT that difficult with the correct research. Took us a few months to figure it out properly, and as scary as it seems, almost anyone (with some guidance) could do this wonderfully. ;) I don't think ANY raw feeder would suggest NO research.. we push educating yourself, not just listening to companies/vets/etc.
 

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Jeanie, there are certain absolutes that are absolutely true. One is that cooked meat is absolutely less nutritious than raw meat. All cooking processes destroy a certain amount of nutrients. Another absolute is that all raw or cooked, homemade or commercial foods are susceptible to contamination by various infective organisms and toxins. These risks can be minimized by clean handling practices and knowledgeable sourcing of foodstuffs. A third absolute - at least in my own belief - is that there is no absolutely safe food source for any of us, pets included. Our planet is just too polluted.

So, it's all a matter of education and risk assessment and management. It's a heck of a lot easier for me to educate myself about the food I am feeding my animals when I feed homemade meals than when I buy commercial food. I have no way of accurately researching the sources of ingredients or exact proportions used in commercial foods. I don't own a testing lab where I can identify toxic melamine in my cats' food before it destroys their kidneys. Nor can I test for salmonella in raw chicken in my refrigerator. All I can do is what I can do, but I generally feel safer doing it myself rather than trusting Purina to do it for me.

Laurie
 

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The melamine scandal was limited. Laurie, I never mentioned Purina. I said a "good, reputable" company.

I won't argue this, because neither of us will change the mind of the other. However, I hope that those of you who want to feed raw meat to your cats will research this matter thoroughly. That means trace elements also. I think you are taking a terrible chance with your cats' lives. :(

About the word "absolute:" There is only one absolute science, and that is math, and in my opinion, one Being. Nutrition is not an absolute science, and not all pet food companies are dishonest.
 

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Jeanie, why do you think they feed raw meat to tigers and lions in Zoos instead of just opening a huge can of food from very good company? :D

There is a lot of smoke around dangers of raw diet like salmonella etc. but it's not the first time when I ask whether ANYBODY has ever heard of a REAL case when a cat got sick with salmonella. So far I haven't got any answer :wink: . Birds in the wild that cat catch were not deep frozen :D , and many of them have salmonella or e coli or whatever, and cats eat them and do not seem to get sick and die :D . My point is that I do not see any real evidence how dangerous raw diet is.

What is my concern with wet food is what they REALLY use as a meat source? Fillet mignon? Hardly :wink: And I want to know what I put into my cat's mouse.

Cat's nutrition is not that difficult - they need high protein (50% or more), moderate amount of fat and low carbohydrates - this is what is close to wild. Commercial food has too much carbohydrates, not mentioning other issues.

At least these are my thoughts, but I would like to make one more point. Commercial food is about billions and billions and billions dollars, and I bet that commercial profit comes BEFORE out cats' health. And - I'm verry sorry - but vets get their $$$ when our cats are sick (better chronically sick or seriously sick) and not when they are healthy, so I don't see why would most of them support any diet that will help cats stay healthy. :wink:

Sorry if I sound opinionated, I didn't want it and I do respect ANYONE'S point of view even if I may disagree with it. I only wanted to explain why I feed my cats raw diet (besides zillion other reasons).
 

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Jeanie said:
I think you are taking a terrible chance with your cats' lives. :(
This is exactly why I knew this forum would never really work here. People coming and telling us we're horrible people who may be killing our pets. IMO, if you don't agree and it upsets you, don't read it. There is nothing be gained from posting telling us how much you disagree and what terrible things we're doing. This should be a place to learn, debate but not be an alarmist and insinuate we're not looking out for our pets best interests. It's offensive and hurtful that you'd think we'd take this great change at hurting out beloved pets. I don't need someone who doesn't agree with my choices (which are my own, and WILL NOT KILL MY PETS) telling me I am taking a terrible chance with my BABIES LIVES.

For the love of all that is holy, this makes me so very very upset.
 

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There are a few more points I'd like to make.

It doesn't matter how much commercial companies wish to produce the healthiest possible food for our cats - their possibilities are VERY MUCH limited. Commercial food MUST meet certain requirements in order for the producing companies to stay in business.

First, they can't produce fresh food and they have to add preservatives (chemicals) into food so that it could stay long on shelves and not get spoiled. And those chemicals are not healthy for anybody.

Second, the food they produce has to be affordable to most pet owners which means they have to keep cost low by any means. And the cost of commercial food doesn't just adds up from meat, it's also labor, power cost, rent/lease/whatever of building, equipment, materials, taxes, management, delivery, marketing - the list is really very long. So again, it doesn't matter how much they are willing to produce very high quality food and how much they are willing to be "best" companies - they have very strict and very certain limits.

I believe many cats are doing fine on dry or wet food and live long healthy lives like there are very many people who smoke, never go to gym, eat unhealthy food and doing just fine. It is not healthy but it doesn't mean one gets sick in a matter of days or months and there is still a possibility that one will stay healthy till death. But another point I'd like to make is that you can't really judge how good/bad commercial food is for your cat if your cat is young - it's when they get into their senior years their diet may (or may not) seriously affect their health.
 

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Muzby said:
I think what he's saying is that no matter what the company, they need to make a bottom line..
Right on. :thumb:

Every company's first priority is to make money. They're not in business for the benefit of cats. They're in business for the benefit of the owners. Of course, the best cat food companies will recognize that they can also make the most money by producing the best cat food possible. But I'll be willing to bet they're a minority in the market. Somebody's got to be in the market to sell cheap crap, and they do it because people buy it.
 

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Kelly, I assure you that giving a different opinion is allowed on this forum. That's what a forum is for. I will read this forum as long as I am a moderator. I might not agree with raw food for cats, but I helped you to get this forum.

I said all I had to say, and did not say anyone was horrible. I think your motives are good, but I disagree with your methods.

I think you'll find that to be true if you read my posts again. I am not an alarmist, only cautious. I said all I have to say on the subject, but I have to read it. It's my duty. :)
 

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laurief said:
Jeanie, there are certain absolutes that are absolutely true. One is that cooked meat is absolutely less nutritious than raw meat.
Also right on. :thumb:

risk assessment and management.
Ah!! I'm so glad somebody understands risk management!! Nothing in life is completely safe. You measure the risk against the benefit and take whatever ratio best fits your circumstances. Maybe you're willing to take a little more risk if there's more of a benefit. Maybe you're not willing to take the risk because you can't handle the consequences if the probabilities go against you. We're all assessing and managing risk every day whether we understand it and know or whether we don't. We can do it better, however, when we understand the risk and we know how to manage it.
 

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Just one more thing for Jeanie to think about:

What is a cat's natural diet, and how could cats in the wild possibly survive if that were a dangerous diet?

The danger isn't the raw meat; the danger comes somewhere in between the live prey animal (or the live chicken or lamb or whatever) and the cat's mouth. Know what the dangers are and knowing what the dangers are, how to mitigate them or avoid them. Mankind is the enemy and mankind is also the solution. Conundrum. Ergo, be the solution. The meat is not the problem. :)
 

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I apologize, Jeanie. I assumed that you would understand that I was using single examples to make generalized points. To clarify, melamine was a single example of a toxic contaminant found in some commercial pet foods, including some premium brands. It is by no means the ONLY contaminant ever identified in commercial pet foods.

Salmonella is not the only potentially injurious organism that may conceivably be present in raw meat. There are plenty of others.

Purina is just the first pet food manufacturer's name that popped into my head. I am just as unable to verify the sources of ingredients in the premium brands as I am in the cheaper ones.

I hope that helps you to understand the intended scope of my comments in my previous post.

Laurie
 
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