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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As someone who spent numerous years in AA and in treatment I am deeply offended that you would generalize addicts and alcoholics who live everyday with a debilitating disease. Instead of caring for them and hoping they can get help you say they are selfish? Do you think cancer sufferers who can't seem to get better are selfish? Addiction is a DISEASE and if you think the person is selfish and not the disease then I feel sorry for you. I would also say that you know nothing about addiction if you are making statements like that.

You should be trying to help people who suffer, not judge them and call them selfish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
In fact, before you tell me anything else you know about addiction I would ask that you read a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous. I would be happy to send you a copy in the mail.
 

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As someone who spent numerous years in AA and in treatment I am deeply offended that you would generalize addicts and alcoholics who live everyday with a debilitating disease. Instead of caring for them and hoping they can get help you say they are selfish? Do you think cancer sufferers who can't seem to get better are selfish? Addiction is a DISEASE and if you think the person is selfish and not the disease then I feel sorry for you. I would also say that you know nothing about addiction if you are making statements like that.

You should be trying to help people who suffer, not judge them and call them selfish.
You and i very much disagree on this, obviously. So, i won't go into all of the stories i know of people who have been greatly effected by addicts in their lives and what transpired because obviously you know better than i do. I don't need to argue with you,nor do i need to agree with you. Feel how you'd like and i'll continue to feel how i do. But think of this, when and how did i ever say that i stopped caring for the individual? Cancer is an entirely separate issue, i don't really think you're making a logical argument =\ Cancer isn't an option, opting to drink and or smoke to cope with your issue is a CHOICE. People go through deep dark depression and psychological issues all of the time, and they opt to see a therapist instead of doing something that's self destructive. People in my shoes who had a drug addict father get to sit and watch someone suffer because of the choices they made. He put my mother through bankruptcy, lied, and did a plethora of other things that really effected my family and my best friend has a brother who is a heroin addict who has put her family through ****. You're speaking from the addict's perspective, instead of from the people who go through this with them and watch as the person they love is slowly killing themselves and even though they have the opportunity for help, they're opting not to take it because they don't think they have a problem.
 

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Your situation may be very different from what i've experienced with addicts, but addicts from what i've personally experienced tend to try and attempt to drag those around them down with them. Also, try not to be offended by something when someone has a different opinion from yours, we all feel differently and have experiences that cause us to feel the way we do. I'm not judging you on how you feel or for your opinion, yet you're almost getting furious with me. I'm not trying to be combative, yet i feel you are.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
From medical-online.com:

"If the problems you suffer stem from severe alcoholism or addiction, you must accept that these problems are not primarily mental or free will issues. Addictions are not about will power. The problems facing addicts, alcoholics, and their families are miserable, disgusting, and infuriating. They are often hopelessly discouraging. But to imagine that an addict "could change if he wanted to" is a serious misunderstanding of the long term dynamic of addictive disorder. The fact is precisely that an addict cannot change in the long run even if he wants to! That is the definition of addiction: "the loss of control over the use of a substance." It is important to understand that this loss of control is manifested not in terms of days or weeks, but in longer term behaviors: terms of months and years."

From Mayo Clinic:

"Alcoholism is a chronic disease in which your body becomes dependent on alcohol. When you have alcoholism, you lose control over your drinking. You may not be able to control when you drink, how much you drink, or how long you drink on each occasion. If you have alcoholism, you continue to drink even though you know it's causing problems with your relationships, health, work or finances."

Maybe those people who were "dragging others down" were experiencing a debilitating disease and the effects of it. I'm not expressing an opinion to you, I'm telling you what actually happens. I also wasn't being "snarky", I really will send you a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous if you want to debate it with me. Because then you would at least have the resources available to you to learn about addiction.
 

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I will say that i apologize if i offended you in any way, but obviously that was never my intention. I think that the forum for the most part should just stick to cat related issues because things such as this tend to get people heated and i'm not heated, but obviously my opinion caused for you to be upset and so for my part in this..i'm sorry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Steps 8 and 9 from AA:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I'm not saying that being an addict is a free pass to be a horrible person. What I am saying is that it is a symptom of the disease, not because they are selfish human beings. When you do 8 and 9 you accept that you did these things as a symptom of your disease and by going in recovering you are taking responsibility for all the things you did. If you told a recovering person that they were selfish and harmed those people because they suck at life and not because they have a disease, what do you think they would do? Go and use drugs and alcohol because they already think they are horrible, so what is the point?
 

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From medical-online.com:

"If the problems you suffer stem from severe alcoholism or addiction, you must accept that these problems are not primarily mental or free will issues. Addictions are not about will power. The problems facing addicts, alcoholics, and their families are miserable, disgusting, and infuriating. They are often hopelessly discouraging. But to imagine that an addict "could change if he wanted to" is a serious misunderstanding of the long term dynamic of addictive disorder. The fact is precisely that an addict cannot change in the long run even if he wants to! That is the definition of addiction: "the loss of control over the use of a substance." It is important to understand that this loss of control is manifested not in terms of days or weeks, but in longer term behaviors: terms of months and years."

From Mayo Clinic:

"Alcoholism is a chronic disease in which your body becomes dependent on alcohol. When you have alcoholism, you lose control over your drinking. You may not be able to control when you drink, how much you drink, or how long you drink on each occasion. If you have alcoholism, you continue to drink even though you know it's causing problems with your relationships, health, work or finances."

Maybe those people who were "dragging others down" were experiencing a debilitating disease and the effects of it. I'm not expressing an opinion to you, I'm telling you what actually happens. I also wasn't being "snarky", I really will send you a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous if you want to debate it with me. Because then you would at least have the resources available to you to learn about addiction.
Do you know how many NA and AA meetings i've been to? Do you have any idea? I went to NA for years with my father and AA with my mother to help her cope with what was going on with my father. I don't want to be rude, but i know all of the above and i've heard/read it numerous times. After the addiction ensues, you have no control, and you need the help and also the first step to getting clean is that you admit you have a problem which quite a few addicts struggle with. My father lied to my mother about his age, who he was, his belief system, basically everything imaginable under the sun. I have forgiven him and we have a relatively good relationship and i keep in contact with him and he comes over for lunch every single Friday and as i said previously, he quit when i was 5. He caused bankruptcy with my mom, they lost the house they owned in Los Angeles, and they also lost the pharmacy my mom helped purchase. And i just want for you to tell me that he wasn't selfish and it was just the disease? Even if you have a disease, you can still see what you're doing to others and how it's effecting them. You're not just suddenly blind to everything and my dad always understood what my mom was telling him and in therapy he said he didn't want to work on his issues and he was fine the way he was. I can't just sit here and believe it's because my dad had a "disease" My friend's brother, the heroin addict, he stole baseball cards that my friend's dad's father gave to him that were worth tons of money, but valued more non-monetarily. He sold those to get drugs, he sold other valuables, he lied, stole money, etc and you're just going to say that's the disease? Even though, he can see what he's doing, gets clean and then opts to do the same thing again?
 

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I may be wrong, but I believe one of the steps of AA is to admit that you have misused people and apologize to them for all the things you have done to them in the course of your addiction. The fact that you are meant to write all these things out is a practice in opening your eyes to becoming less self-focused, which is one of the traps of addiction. There are other elements at play, but from a lot of lit I read (including AA when researching it due to family history) it certainly isn't wrong to say that being self-centered is a problem for addicts. (One of my good friends found the strength to break out of crack cocaine because she had her daughter, which gave her a reason to step outside of herself. Sadly, this is not enough for some people).

Basically... maybe I am just remembering wrong. And anyway, as others have said, different experiences teach different things. *shrugs*

However, it is very sad with Amy Winehouse. It is a loss when people lose their lives in such a way. I was never into her music, but her style paved the way for folk rockers like Adele who I adore, so I have that to owe to her music.
Thank you for sharing your experience and making me feel like i'm not strange or mean for saying that addicts are selfish or can be selfish. I'm glad your friend had a baby that allowed for her to see the beauty and love in life :)
 

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Please refer to my post about Steps 8 and 9 for my response.
I can read it, but people are still responsible for their actions. If someone goes and kills someone because they're high on meth, and then someone just goes, oh well they were addicted and it's the disease that caused that. You're accountable for your actions and who you are to others, even in times of struggle and addiction. You may not be able to stop the addiction by yourself, but at least admitting that you were in the wrong and that you're sorry for hurting those around you and you're coming from a sincere place. We are all responsible for actions that we take in our lives. It's just like alcoholics who get in the car and kill someone, the law doesn't just go, oh it's the disease. Do you see my point? My husband and my friend drank somewhat regularly, he got into a car, and killed a young teenage girl. He is in jail now for vehicular manslaughter, do you think it's just okay as to what happened and he couldn't control his actions because he has a disease? His friend begged and pleaded for him to not get in the car. Obviously, i am in no way you're saying you're condoning drinking and driving, but these people also are addicted and they're afflicted by the disease as well. Everyone is accountable, period
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Steps 8 and 9 is taking responsibility for their actions, what do you think it is? I said that it is not a free pass, but that the disease they have contributed greatly to their actions because their addiction were running their minds. I have known many people that went to prison from steps 8 and 9 because they were taking responsibility.
 

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Steps 8 and 9 is taking responsibility for their actions, what do you think it is? I said that it is not a free pass, but that the disease they have contributed greatly to their actions because their addiction were running their minds. I have known many people that went to prison from steps 8 and 9 because they were taking responsibility.
Well, taking responsibility for your actions means that you realize you made selfish decisions, so going back to me saying how addicts can be selfish,that is a true statement. Why would you be so offended initially if you can realize that people have to atone for their mistakes? Addiction as you probably know though, doesn't just happen over night. It's over continuous use over periods of time, and that there changes the chemicals and the path ways in your brain to cause you to look at the world in a different light. But, as far as the experience i shared with you with my father and my friend's brother..they were both fully aware of what transpired and what they did yet they still want to blame others and or not take responsibility for their own actions. But, Sinatra, others have agreed with me as far as the selfishness is concerned. Have you dealt with friends who have been addicts? Do you think just telling them, oh i love you and oh it's okay is going to solve anything? My friend's brother tells his mom, i love you and i'm sorry and then he goes and takes money for christmas presents to do drugs. They don't need a crutch, they need someone to tell them, i love you and i want you to get help..but, i can't continue to just keep giving to you without you wanting to truthfully change. You can get sucked down with them, period. I'm sorry if what i've said has offended you, but obviously i'm not the only one even in this thread who feels the way i do.
 
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