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Discussion Starter #1
You've been warned. :D Put your SPOILERS and HP:HBP thoughts here.

On the topic of spoilers, I don't have much to say. I'm still reeling from everything that was presented here, and I'm devastated. I blew through the book in about seven hours, so I need to go back and read it again... but I don't know if I want to do that just yet.

The book was absolutely brilliant, if not what I wanted to hear.
 

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Since the spoiler warning is already in the title, I'll just go ahead and not censor myself about what's happened, because I can't talk about it with anyone else--no one's finished yet!
I also read through it quickly and I'll go over it more carefully tonight, but wow! And I'm glad my hunches were correct about Harry & Ginny and Ron & Hermione...and what a surprise about Lupin and Tonks! I like the idea of that pair, though. My boyfriend's going to be surprised--he's pulling for Harry & Hermione to end up together. I can't believe Dumbledore's gone! I just don't know how everyone's going to cope...unless he comes back as a ghost or something similar. And I'm very intruiged about Malfoy, and what will happen with him.
All things considered, I think this one might be my favorite.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I've been a huge Snape fan ever since I started reading the series (I read the whole shebang when OotP came out), utterly convinced of his redemption and underlying loyalty to Dumbledore. He's been my favorite, for all his complexity and depth of character. I screamed "OH MY GOD!" when I reached the murder scene, and I seem to remember repeating that phrase many times from that point on, until I closed the book and put it away.

At the same time, I'm gratified to know that there is still more to Snape than meets the eye. His complexity has not waned... it has merely changed. And there are still questions about his allegience. So many questions.

Now, I have to try and refrain from talking about it, as my husband is next to read it.
 

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Oh, I've never liked Snape at all! I always hated that he was so horrible to Harry. But I was just like the characters--if Dumbledore believed he was a good guy, so did I! But throughout the book I was less and less sure, and then BAM! Dumbledore's gone. I wasn't expecting that either, since I purposely didn't try to find out anything about the book before it came out, so I had only my own suspicions as to what would happen. I think that Snape definitely still has a more important role to play than just another Death Eater, but now it's even harder to tell what that might be!
 

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I dunno, it seems to me the whole dumbledore dying thing was just to make a big splash in this book. I wasn't near as impressed with this one as I was with the rest. Bookes 1-4 are awesome, 5 and 6? Eh, not so much. At this point i'm thinking I don't even want to bother with book 7. Or if I do i'll wait until the library gets it a year after its released.

I was extremely dissapointed in Dumbledore. Seriously, having all the information he did on Snape and he still believed his "I am a changed man!" speach? I honestly thought Dumbledore had a REAL reason for trusting Snape. Noone that smart ignores when their friends and collegues all say "Hey dude, he's a bad man!" And begging and sniveling to Snape when he was going to kill him? ***? Thats not Dumbledore style at ALL.

Yup, very dissapointed.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Payge said:
Seriously, having all the information he did on Snape and he still believed his "I am a changed man!" speach? I honestly thought Dumbledore had a REAL reason for trusting Snape. Noone that smart ignores when their friends and collegues all say "Hey dude, he's a bad man!" And begging and sniveling to Snape when he was going to kill him?*** ? Thats not Dumbledore style at ALL.
Ah, my dear, but you aren't reading into the books at all! :D JK Rowling is a crafty, devious lady, and it's been a long time since she wrote anything to be taken at face value. Who's to say that Dumbledore's death wasn't a part of it?

"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ..."
"I am," said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. (GoF 36)

It's been almost a year since I last read GoF and OotP, but I don't recall this being resolved. Perhaps he was talking about Occlumency lessons, but perhaps it was something more.

I'm not jumping on the "Save Snape!" bandwagon just yet, as I really need to read the book again first, but there are lots of great essays out there already about the possibilities. Perhaps his trust wasn't misplaced.
 

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I will jump on the Save Snape bandwagon. I believe Dumbledore and Snape both knew this was coming, and that Dumbledore was not pleading for his life in his last moments, but rather pleading with Snape to do what had to be done... I don't know why yet, but that is so much more consistent with the characters Rowling has created in both Dumbledore and Snape... I also believe this is part of the reason Snape yelled so forcefully at Harry when Harry called Snape a coward - Snape had just done one of the hardest things he had ever done.. If you read closely, Snape was teaching Harry right to the very end, giving him the skills he will undoutably need in the next book...

There's some really interesting discussions going on out there as to whether Dumbledore is actually dead, or whether he will return - and both sides make some really good cases. Unfortaunately, as muchas i want him to live, I cannot see that hapening. Then again, Dumbledore is in many ways a Gandolf-character for this generation... I felt much the same way with Dumbldore's death scene as i did with Gandolfs, and Tolkein brought Gandolf back...
 

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I'm pretty sure Dumbledore will continue to help Harry, but I suspect it will be little pieces of advice coming from his moving portrait. I will actuallybe pretty disappointed if Rowling does bring him back to life in the last novel... Harry really has to conquer this last challenege on his own to make the prophecy true...
 

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ARGH! So PI$$ED off...Dumbledore dead...ARGH! :evil:
Seriously, I was not expecting that. And I also think that there HAS to be a better reason for why he trusted Snape, more than just Snape saying he was sorry.
And what do you guys mean, maybe his trust wasn't misplaced...he KILLED him! :evil: So no bones about it, yes, Snape is one of the bad guys.
On a totally unrelated note...didn't Rowling say there were supposed to be dragons in this book? :?
 

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Not read any of the other posts cause I'm only on page 200, long way to go yet...but oh my god I love it! So tempted to read the spoilers, so, so tempted! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
shlanon said:
And what do you guys mean, maybe his trust wasn't misplaced...he KILLED him! :evil: So no bones about it, yes, Snape is one of the bad guys.
1. Dumbledore would never beg for his life. Ever. That "Please" meant something else entirely.
2. Dumbledore sought Snape upon returning to the castle, and he appeared neither worried nor scared when surrounded by Death Eaters.
3. He and Snape, both accomplished Legilimens, looked at one another for a long moment before Snape AK'd him. This is significant.
4. Snape and Dumbledore had been arguing about what was being asked of Snape recently, as overheard by Hagrid.
5. As per Dumbledore, Snape saved him when the Horcrux devastated his hand at the beginning of the book.
6. Snape's venom when Harry called him a coward... well, okay. This might just be vintage Angry!Snape, but not necessarily. If Snape did Dumbledore's bidding in killing him, Snape would undoubtedly be distraught. Very.
7. Snape did not seek to kill, maim, or otherwise touch Harry after Dumbledore's death. He merely deflected spells, biding time.
8. Pursuant to the above, Snape was even offering valid - if snide - advice regarding Harry's fighting. Bits about clearing his mind and whatnot. Same stuff we heard in Occlumency lessons which proved to be vital... which Harry ignored.

These are just the points that come to mind. No, I'm not entirely convinced that Snape is a good guy, but there's absolutely no way to rule it out, save some selective reading.

The big question on my mind now is: "How did James know Snape's non-verbal spells?" If you recall, in the notorious Pensieve scene, Snape was flipped upside down, and his grundies were visible to the world. The action here was lightning-fast, but it went like this. Flash of light, James's face is bleeding. (Sectumsempra? Don't have the book on me at the moment, but I believe that was the name.) An instant later, there was a flash of light, and Snape was flipped upside down in midair. Both of these, per Snape in chapter 28 of HBP, are his spells, of his own invention. Now, it could be that the Marauders are just that cool that they've reckoned out this non-verbal spell. After all, they DID make the map and figure out how to become Animagi. But. How do you learn the mental 'incantation' for a non-verbal spell unless you are taught? Who really devised this spell?

Perhaps that question isn't important, but it's one I'm curious about nonetheless.
 

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I think the biggest indication of where Snape's loyalty lies came at the end, when Harry tries to use the cruciatus curse on him. He reflects, and says, "No unforgivable magic from you, Potter." He goes beyond just saving Harry's life, and saves him from the physical and moral consequences of using unforgivable spells.

It could go either way, certainly, but J.K. Rowling is doing some pretty heavy hinting that Snape is still on Harry's side. I got the exact same impressions aphrodeia did - there's just absolutely no way Dumbledore would have been pleading for his life. He was pleading for his death, and the reason Snape gives him that look of hatred right before he kills him is because of the position he's been put in by Dumbledore. Killing Dumbledore really cements his place in the death eaters, and goes a long way towards convincing Voldemort that Snape is on his side.

If you think about it, Dumbledore spent this whole book preparing to die. He spent books 1-6 withholding important information from Harry, and in this one he spent his time telling Harry everything he knew and finding out exactly what had to be done to defeat Voldemort. He makes references several times to his unimportance. He absolutely knew from the beginning the position that Malfoy was in, and the oath Snape swore. He knew he was going to die, otherwise he definitely wouldn't have told Harry everything that he did.

I think there's lots of ways they could have known the non-verbal spells. They could have seen his book, just like Harry did. Snape was close to Lily, so maybe he taught Lily the spell, who passed it on. Maybe they saw him using it and figured it out.
 

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I had to keep from crying so the boyfriend wouldn't know what happened. All I could think was, "NOOOOOO!!!"

How long until the next book????????
 

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Discussion Starter #14
JKR has said that she's not going to start writing the next one full-time until the new year. I would anticipate 2008, personally.
 

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I also think there is something going on with Snape, although my initial reaction was nothing but complete horror. I thought that Dumbledore might just die of old age... nothing that horrile.

I was convinced that Snape might actually be completely evil but after he gave Harry pointers and didn't actually attack him - it made me realize there was something going on more than him just killing Dumbledore for the heck of it.

The only thing I didn't like was that this book did not leave me with a good feeling inside as the other ones have... it ended on a very negative note - even though Harry is about to go to Flour and Bill's wedding. I think if she would have written a wedding chapter the feeling might have been different... but I think that the gloominess was the point of ending it there.

Oh yes, I was totally surprised that Flour was still going to marry Bill... "I am good-looking enough for the both of us, I theenk!" ^_^ That was one of the most cutest lines hehe.

I'm really not relishing the time I'm going to have to wait to read the next one... but I guess it gives me time to collect the hard bound editions of the other books. The first four are falling apart. :lol:
 

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But what is the PURPOSE of Snape killing Dumbledore? Why would Dumbledore want Snape to kill him? Keep in mind this had to have been planned out a long time ago, before Snape made the Unbreakable Vow, or else Snape IS a traitor. If Snape made the Vow first and then Dumbledore found out about it, this doesn't work because then Dumbledore would have had to kill Snape. So the death would have been planned out almost a year in advance....WHY?
At any rate, I'm sure we will find in book 7. I would think that some else in the Order would have known about it if it was Dumbledore's plan to have Snape kill him...or maybe Dumbledore left a note explaining or his portrait will tell everyone.
Here's one thing I am wondering...if he KNEW Snape was going to kill him, then how come he was telling Malfoy just before then that he could help him?!
And finally, my rebuttals to aphrodeia's comments, just for the sake of argument. :)
1. He might....
2. He wasn't worried because he thought Snape was on his side and knew that members of the Order were there to help fight the Death Eaters.
3. This could go either way.
4. This could be anything, but yes, it does point to Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him, but still only makes sense if this was planned out before Snape made the Unbreakable Vow.
5. He could have been biding his time for some reason.
6. Vintage angry Snape.
7. Snape said that Potter was for the Dark Lord.
8. Could be just snideness or yes, maybe something else.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
But what is the PURPOSE of Snape killing Dumbledore?Why would Dumbledore want Snape to kill him?
Possibilities include the fact that Dumbledore was aging, Snape needed to solidify his position with Voldemort, and Dumbledore not wanting Draco to have to do the deed. After all, when you kill, it can splinter your soul. The jury is, of course, still out on if these are possibilities.

If Snape made the Vow first and then Dumbledore found out about it, this doesn't work because then Dumbledore would have had to kill Snape.
No, Dumbledore wouldn't have HAD to kill Snape. He only would have killed Snape in the event that his life was more important than Snape's. At this point in the game, we don't know that to be true.

I would think that some else in the Order would have known about it if it was Dumbledore's plan to have Snape kill him...
Not necessarily. When in a situation like that, it's not really a good idea to be airing information. It could too easily fall into the hands of an enemy. (Not to mention the outcry that would come from the Order with such an announcement. Can you imagine that meeting? Hee!)

Here's one thing I am wondering...if he KNEW Snape was going to kill him, then how come he was telling Malfoy just before then that he could help him?!
Biding his time, keeping Malfoy from uttering those words, planting some hope in him.

As always, just my opinion, but I see some strong evidence that all is not so straightforward as Ever-So-Evil Snape.
 

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Well, based on the evidence, I DO think there's a possibility that Snape isn't evil, but there are definately loose ends to be tied up.
The only thing I really still have a beef about is that if Snape did make the Unbreakable Vow first and then Dumbledore found out about it later, then that essentially means that Snape is evil and Dumbledore would have known that he was on the wrong side. Because when Snape made the Vow, he was, I'm sure, very aware of what he was doing. I think if Dumbledore found out about the Vow after the fact, he would know that Snape is really evil and he would have had to do something about since Snape was on Voldy's side.
So if I'm going to believe that Snape is good, then I'm going to have to be convinced in the next book that he made that Vow after Dumbledore had already told him he wanted him to kill him.
 

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shlanon said:
But what is the PURPOSE of Snape killing Dumbledore? Why would Dumbledore want Snape to kill him?
Just a theory on my part... and admimttedly one formed from only one reading of the book, and full of a lot of holes, i'm sure, but here i go...

I'm not sure it was always in the works that Snape kill Dumbledore, but the fate was sealed as soon as Snape made the unbreakable vow to protect Malfoy. This is where my biggest hole is - why did he make the vow? But regarldess, the vow was basically to keep Malfoy safe. Malfoy would not have been able to kill Dumbledore. It was clear he was waivering, thus an unforgiveable curce probably wouldn't have worked had he even tried. And if Voldemort learned Malfoy had failed, he would certainly not have been safe. Thereofre, with Malfoy unable, Snape had no choice but to do what he did. He couldn't break the vow...
 

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[quote="aphrodeia]
Possibilities include the fact that Dumbledore was aging, Snape needed to solidify his position with Voldemort, and Dumbledore not wanting Draco to have to do the deed. After all, when you kill, it can splinter your soul. The jury is, of course, still out on if these are possibilities.
[/quote]

Okay #1, I can understand somewhat, although still..
#2 only makes sense to me in combination with #1. I think it would be dumb for a powerful wizard like Dumbledore to sacrifice himself just so Snape could solidfy his position with Voldemort UNLESS he were faltering and aging anyway....because after all, Dumbledore has been the only person Voldemort was afraid of and so he was a powerful part of the Order.
As for #3, this can go in circles, if Snape hadn't made that Vow, and Draco hadn't been able to kill Dumbledore, then theoretically no one would have HAD to kill Dumbledore. Except in the way the story was laid out, it seems someone would have anyway, if it hadn't been Draco.
 
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