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Discussion Starter #1
...but still confused about how much to feed exactly? I have to 8 month old cats who weigh around 8 pounds. Is it OK if I just randomly give them some heart, some liver (or any other organs) and some bones? Then if they finish all of it (I know when my cats are still hungry) give them some more? Or if they leave some then remember to give them less? If it's ABSOLUTELY necessary to measure it then I have a 6 oz can of canned food, can I just use that as a measurement tool?

I'm getting these meats from my grocery store. Supplements aren't necessary right? If they are then I can mix in some Wellness canned food, right?
 

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I just posted some info, including links, at the bottom of this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=66009

Heart, liver, and bones is not an appropriate diet.

For 8 month kittens, feed 2X a day. I would assume this kitty will weigh 10 pounds when full grown, and feed accordingly. Here is the calculator:

http://www.hare-today.com/feed.php?osCs ... ace1235a9d

Inputting 10 pounds at 2%, I get 3.2 oz, or at 3%, 4.8 oz. That is a DAY -- divide in half and feed 1/2 2x a day.

See all the links I posted in above thread, and other info. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Can you elaborate on the heart, liver and bones not being appropriate? I thought heart counted as a muscle meat and liver counted as the organ. I know you feed only 5% liver and the other 5% should be another organ such as kidney. And then 10% bones. So if I feed 80% chicken breast, beef or turkey meat, 5% chicken liver, 5% chicken kidney and 10% chicken wings, that should be alright?
 

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catlady2010 said:
Can you elaborate on the heart, liver and bones not being appropriate? I thought heart counted as a muscle meat and liver counted as the organ. I know you feed only 5% liver and the other 5% should be another organ such as kidney. And then 10% bones. So if I feed 80% chicken breast, beef or turkey meat, 5% chicken liver, 5% chicken kidney and 10% chicken wings, that should be alright?
Heart is a fine muscle meat. It just sounded as if that was the only muscle meat you planned to feed. You want variety as mucy as possible.

What you state above is probably going to be fine for starters. Over time you'll tweak it and branch out. Organ meat is most likely to cause the runs in new rawfed cats, so go easy on it for the first few weeks. It will also take your cat time to develop jaw strength and although they are young, they ARE used to commercial food, so they may not just launch right in.

I prefer quail or cornish game hen over chicken, bone-wise, but wings and necks are doable for cats. Make sure you don't get "enhanced" chicken--many wing packages are. That means that "broth" has been added, which means way too much sodium. Not good for them and will result in GI tract problems. The label should say 80mg per serving of sodium or less.
 

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If I were you I'd go get get a scale. It doesn't have to be expensive, just has to measure in ounces (or grams).

Then you need ton know how much to feed which I'll outline here.
So going by two percent, each day should consist of about 3.2 ounces of food.
So each day the cat needs
2.56 ounces of meat
.32 ounces of bone
.16 ounces of liver
.16 ounces of kidney

BUT if you are like me and don't want to feed bone and organ every day you can take the amount of bone and organ you need in one WEEK and divide that into as many meals as you want. So you may only give liver 4 times in the week but you'll be giving the proper amount. So in one week you'd feed:
17.92 ounces of meat
2.24 ounces of bone
1.12 ounces of liver
1.12 ounces of kidney

So get those amounts and then divide them up for the week. So long as in those 7 days the cat consumes those amounts of those things the diet should be balanced. You can't just feed randomly because you might give too much of one aspect (meat) and not enough of another (kidney for instance).

I would also go buy some fish oil (not cod liver oil) and put a bit of that on the meat a few times a week. It is an omega 3 fatty acid which keeps the omega 3's and 6's balanced.

Feed as many kinds of meat as possible, chicken, beef, quail, venison, turkey, pork, rabbit lamb, etc. And feed from different parts too, chicken breast is different from chicken thighs. Heart counts as meat, not organ (because it's a muscle) when feeding this diet.

For bones chicken wings are great, chicken ribs are great, rabbit bones are good, most/all cornish hen bones are perfect.

Organs can come from any species.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you want, if anything I said is confusing please tell me so I can clarify.
 

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~Siameseifuplz~ said:
So going by three percent, each meal should be about 3.2 ounces.
So each day the cat needs
2.56 ounces of meat
.32 ounces of bone
.16 ounces of liver
.16 ounces of kidney
Do you mean each meal or each day? Should be each day, right? And 3% of 10 pounds is 4.8 oz a day (2.4 oz a meal).
 

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I feed my cats as much as they want and as often as I can. They are 1.5 years old persians, and persians are supposed to be massive and heavy, also they are extremely picky/spoiled :D and often just will eat too little or none at all, especially if it's not the food they like "today". And none of them would ever touch commercial food, whether dry or canned.

I never had any scale and never weighed any food and they mainly get beef, other stuff they get eventually, not often at all - they may eat a few pieces of turkey hearts or gizzards or may not eat it at all, and they are not crazy about chicken (once in a while just a little) and not crazy about organs.

I tried to supplement their diet with cat vitamin paste or cat vitamins - one of them would eat it but the other wouldn't touch it including food if I tried to sprinkle it or mix it with ground bison for example.

I give them Bounce treats every night - 20 very small pieces for each, those are the only treats they like (wouldn't touch other treats including Bounce treats but different shape), so I hope they at least get some of the essential nutrients they need. At least they are active and healthy and have no poop/whatever problems - fingers crossed.

I don't think that any of us gets perfectly nutritionally balanced food every day or even every week, doesn't matter how hard we try, so I don't think it's that necessary to keep cats diet very close to perfection.

But my hat is off to those who weigh and pack and measure and keep the ratio :D

My cats are 1.5 years old now but personally I consider 8 months old kitties "kittens" and would feed them often and as much as they can eat. I usually put meat and take the rest of from their dishes it back to fridge in 30 minutes or so.
 

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Vanessa said:
I never had any scale and never weighed any food and they mainly get beef, other stuff they get eventually, not often at all - they may eat a few pieces of turkey hearts or gizzards or may not eat it at all, and they are not crazy about chicken (once in a while just a little) and not crazy about organs..
How are they getting bone?
 

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They would eat turkey necks but not a lot, so I do try to pack just a little and give it to them. One cat may eventually eat a very little piece of chicken wing or game hen - the rest usually goes to garbage. I tried rabbit a few times - none of them would touch it - not meat and not bones, doesn't matter whether I cut or crash or smack or whatever. Last time my bf paid $30+ for a rabbit to make them happy and it all went to waste... they said "no" :D .

So they almost get no bones.... and I'm not going to kill myself over that terrible issue :D . They don't have problems with poop (and they are show persians with VERY long and light fur on their bottoms, so this is VERY important for me :D )... but eventually I give them cottage cheese from russian store (no salt), and eventually they eat it.

And I have bone meal - they wouldn't even approach to any food if I add it to the food... another $20 went to waste :D
 

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Vanessa, please be careful with how you feed your cats. If they are not getting bone and organ they may very well suffer from vitamin A deficiency and weakened bones and teeth. Meat by itself does not provide everything a cat NEEDS. and cat treats are not nutritionally balanced either, plus most of them have low quality ingredients.
 

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What can I do if they are picky eaters? It's not that I haven't tried :D .

Treats have vitamin A and taurine and some other "stuff", so at least they do get it, and one kitty likes cat vitamins or paste. Off course, treats are not nutritionally balanced and have bad ingredients, who would argue that? Not me :mrgreen: . But I don't think that some really tiny pieces as "treats" (not as diet) will hurt them.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about ratios, quantities etc. as long as the cat is obviously healthy. I know raw feeders who just gave meat and something else (often table scraps) and cats live long and healthy lives... not that I support this "wrong" diet but to me it is still better than "nutritionally balanced" commerical food.
 

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If you're feeding treats that are mostly junk and believe that it's not enough to hurt your cats, then why would you think that the small amount good stuff in the treats is enough to help your cats?

And no I can't agree, that a poorly constructed raw diet is better than a high quality commercial wet food.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thank you so much! I got the scale today. I'll do what you do and feed the bone and organ throughout the week at certain meals. How necessary is the fish oil by the way? I currently have fish oil that's like 1200 mg and has omega 3. I just give them one whole capsule a few times a week? Is there such thing as fish oil O/D? lol. Can't I just give them sardines instead of the fish oil? Or anchovies?

I currently have the following stuff: Beef meat, chicken meat, turkey meat, beef kidney, chicken liver, cornish game hen (for bones), and I will get some chicken wings later on. For the 5% organ (other than liver) you're suppose to feed, can I use cow kidney? I couldn't find chicken kidney. And also, how much of the cornish hen are you suppose to feed? Is it OK if I just give them both have of the cornish game hen for dinner? When I weighed it was like 4 oz (each of them got 2 oz). Is there any portion of the cornish game hen that is not edible? What I find a little confusing is how when you weigh the chicken wings or cornish game hen and it weighs in, say 3 oz, how can you get an accurate measurement of the actual ounces of bone contained? Because I mean there is quite a bit meat in cornish game hens.

What I really would like to feed them is raw rabbit, quail and venison. They used to eat the venison flavored EVO canned food and loved it so much. Those three things are impossible to find at local supermarkets. Where do you think I can find them besides online?
 

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doodlebug said:
And no I can't agree, that a poorly constructed raw diet is better than a high quality commercial wet food.
Well, my cats wouldn't touch ANY commercial food, high quality of not, even if they are starving, including the food like something (don't remember the name) "Nature select" that they sell from fridges in supermarkets (sigh). And I tried ALL expensive wet food including EVO etc. - all went to garbage. So commercian food is just out of question.

It is written in the instruction for treats how many a cat needs (around 20 pieces per day for 10 lbs cat or something like that) and how much of vitamin A, B etc. it contains. So yes, I believe that my cats get vitamins and minerals from treats in certain quantities... along with "junk" stuff, off course.

In the past I had a persian cat who got "hypervitaminos" - too much vitamin (they couldn't determine which) from commercial diet and vitamins together... now I actually prefer less than too much.

I tried to give them fish oil, it didn't work... their coats became too greasy, and I show them, and I also think that a healthy cat should have healthy beautiful coat.

Anyway, they are young and healthy and active and look wonderful and win and win at CFA shows (not just because of their type but because of their luxurious coats and overall wonderful healthy condition - judges do comment on their muscles and condition all the time!). I believe I have time to figure out how to feed them best :D . It's not about me, it's about them not eating... spoiled persians :D

"I am not going to worry about it today, I'll worry about it tomorrow" - Scarlett O'Hara? LOL :D
 

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They sell ground bison in all supermarkets - Raley's, Safeway, BelAir etc. Sometimes I get elk, it's also no problem. Rabbit is expensive and unfortunately my cats wouldn't eat it but I believe you can find it.
 

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Vanessa said:
In the past I had a persian cat who got "hypervitaminos" - too much vitamin (they couldn't determine which) from commercial diet and vitamins together... now I actually prefer less than too much.

"I am not going to worry about it today, I'll worry about it tomorrow" - Scarlett O'Hara? LOL :D
That's because there is no need to supplement a commercial diet, it is already balanced. You can overdose fat soluble vitamins, they don't flush out of the system like water soluble vitamins do.

And it seems you've forgotten how well that approach served Scarlett. Think about a plant...don't water it for a few days and it's fine. A few days more an it may still be fine. A few more days and it starts to droop, a few more and some of the leaves turn brown around the edges. Keep withholding water and eventually it dies. And even if you give it water after the leaves start turning brown, it may not recover.

Now think about your cats...that improperly balanced diet may take a few years, but eventually they'll start to "droop"...their coat won't look so great, they may lose their energy, the organ damage starts to set in but you can't see it because there aren't any symptoms (oh, yeah I forgot...you believe if there aren't any symptoms then there's no disease). And eventually the damage is severe enough that symptoms become apparent and at that point, it's not reversible. It doesn't matter how many ribbons your cats have won, their youth is keeping them healthy but eventually an imbalanced diet will catch up with them and by the time "tomorrow" comes and you start worrying about it, it will probably be too late.

A haphazard approach to raw feeding is one of the reasons it's difficult for diligent raw feeders to be able to discuss it openly with their vets...because the vets see the results of what happens when it's not done right and have to deal with the aftermath.
 

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Well... I am NOT arguing about the right raw diet and I did my best - what can I do if cats do not want to eat what they supposedely need???? Starve them? But they still won't eat and eventually get fatty liver decease... So I got the critics, what is the solution?

I was ready to switch my cats to raw slowly but none of them needed them - I offered meat (Julian was 3 months old and Santana was 7.5 month old when they came to me), and that was it - they started to "hate" dry food and "love" raw meat. I didn't force anything.

Where I have some problem is raise hands those whose children eat 100% healthy - vegies, grilled fish, fruits, chicken breast, brown rice, green salad. Never cookies or chocolate or soda. And raise hands those who eat only healthy and never get chocolate, cake, whatever... And who of you weigh portions all the time and balance "the diet" with the math?

If we don't do it to ourselves and to our children I don't see the reason to feed cats 100% healthy and force them to eat what they don't want and like (and it may still give no result) and never to give anything "unhealthy" (not poisonous, off course) that they love :D
 

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*raises hand*

Seriously, as children we were given treats maybe once month and the rest of the time we ate meat my dad had hunted and fresh veggies, etc. We wouldn't get the meal if we didn't eat our salad. Now that I'm older and out of the house I do indulge more often but not enough to directly affect my health.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that your cats are not going to thank you when they get older. Just because a parent feeds one good, balanced meal a week and the rest of the time slapshod insta-meals and fast food doesn't mean their kid is healthy and getting enough nutrients. That is like handing your kid Wasabi Peas as a treat and saying they're vegetables so you don't have to give him carrots his next meal...

Have you tried feeding whole mice, cutting them in half and offering the bloody, meaty, end to the cat? That's how I got Skooma hooked.
 

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This isn't about whether your cats are consuming healthy food or junk food, it's about whether they are receiving enough essential nutrients. Humans are omnivores, if we don't get all the nutrients from one type of food we are still going to eat a medley of other meats, fruits, veggies, nuts, etc. which may very well make up for what we didn't get from that one source of nutrients. Plus almost every doctor I know of still tells us to a take a multi-vitamin because many of us still don't get everything we need. If your cat doesn't get organs there is no other food he's eating that will make up for not getting vitamin A, he just doesn't get it.

Believe me, I understand it can be hard to get a cat to eat stuff, I am struggling with getting my cat to eat organs as well. But no way am I going to just give up that part of the diet, that's not fair to my cat and may very well give others a bad opinion of raw feeding because my cat may eventually get sick from the diet.

Hey, I hope we are wrong and your cats will be absolutely fine for a very long time, it's just not a risk I would take but they're not my cats, so no matter what we say it's up to you not us.
 
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