Wet vs. Dry

5700 Views 55 Replies 16 Participants Last post by ForJazz, Jan 3, 2004

shlanon

Discussion Starter · Nov 28, 2003

Is it okay to just feed dry food or is there any reason to give cats some wet other than just because they like it?
I have been feeding Stormy just dry for some time now. Then I got Justin and I decided to feed them both some wet as a treat for getting along. I got Iams because I didn't know any better and also had some Whiskas pouches that were given to me. Justin ate it all up, Stormy wouldn't touch it. Then I got some Fancy Feast because I didn't have time to get to a real pet store. Justin ate it, Stormy wouldn't. Should I try again with better quality wet food? I'm just wondering why Stormy doesn't seem to want wet food! She has gotten much more picky lately but recently switched from Purina One to Felidae (dry) with no problems at all. She doesn't seem to want people food either, other than milk sometimes. Justin however will eat little bits of chicken and other meats that I have given him.

41 - 56 of 56 Posts

AngelZoo

· #41 · Dec 14, 2003

Please stop bashing me and the list. Over the years now I have put up with this from you, I have encouraged you to take it upon yourself to learn about this type of nutrition and you haven't. There are many pets out there whoms lives are better because of nutritional information I have passed on from other trusted and acclaimed medical sources.

Most people have never heard of Solid Gold or Timber Wolf Organics, this opens up a whole new world to them, past the commerical diets at grocerys stores or PetSmart.

Those food ratings were not made by me, they come from vets and nutritionist whom studied for this purpose. Plus you forget I am studying in the pet medical field, I am studying companion animal nutrition, being taught by many vets whom have researched this information in their labs for more years than any other and then you are old. Your statements are only opinions in themself, but at least I am not attacking you when you are trying to be helpful. The list is purely an assortment of foods where people can take it upon themselves and speak with their vet concerning said animal, and which pariticular diet would be best.

Show me proof why the list is bad, show me proof that cats don't need meats in their diet, until then, please stop with the snide remarks.
:roll:

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opokki

· #42 · Dec 14, 2003

Sol said:
I've seen what they make wet food of and it's disgusting.

Have you seen what they make dry food of? I'd imagine (depending on the company) that it could be equally disgusting.
Im not trying to be argumentative but some of the canned foods I've used actually smell good and have ingredients that can be identified just by looking at it. Active Life for instance, the shredded chicken variety is just that....shredded chicken. It actually looked more appealing to me than the can of Hormel canned chicken that I bought for myself.
I agree that some of the canned foods are pretty disgusting. One of the cans I opened once smelled like rotten meat which made me wonder what exactly was in there.
Just my 2cents.

I must say that this myth that dry food causes crystals in the urine is making me tired. It's not the dry food itself. It's the contents. To high Ph-value and too much magnesium causes crystals! High quality cat food (dry or wet) have the proper amounts of magnesium and a good Ph-value in the food.

I agree.
Here is quote form Small Animal Clinical Nutrition III - Lewis,Morris,Hand:
"When most commercial dry cat fods are eaten, there is greater urinary magnesium concentration and therefore predisptosition to FUS than when canned foods are eaten. This difference is due to the fat, fiber, digestibility and caloric density of the two forms of food, and is not due to differences in their water or dry-matter magnesium contents. A few dry cat foods are as high, or higher, in fat and caloric density, and as low, or lower, in magnesium as any canned food. They therefore contain a low concentration of magnesium/100 kcal ME. These dry diets do not predispose to FUS and are more likely to prevent FUS than are those canned diets that are low in fat, caloric density, and digestibility and high in magnesium, therefore containing a high concentration of magnesium/100 kcal ME."
There are many non-food related issues that can be a factor in the formation of crystals as well but I often see many place the blame directly on food which can be, but is not always, to blame. Obesity or lack of pysical activity, dirty litter boxes can also be factors as they may cause a decrease in urine frequency.

A lot of meat (more than we know about) is contaminated with salmonella which is quite harmless for a dog but can be deadly for a cat.

I disagree. Contaminated meat is no safer for dogs than it is for cats.

I believe in making the food at home when you know what the contents are. But I belive in cooking the food.

I like this idea as well. Im also (personally) not comfortable with the idea of feeding raw to mine. I have looked into to home-cooking for mine but 1) I have too many pets to do so and 2) I am not confident that I could properly supplement a home-prepared diet.
If I ever decide to do this I will most likely have a veterinary nutritionist create a properly balanced recipe for me based on my cat's individual needs.
When you begin preparing your cat cooked meals I would be interested in hearing your results. Best of luck.

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opokki

· #43 · Dec 14, 2003

AngelZoo said:
Those food ratings were not made by me, they come from vets and nutritionist whom studied for this purpose.

Vets and nutritionists made those lists personally or do you mean you made those lists based on information you have learned from vets and nutritionists? Im just curious as I always thought the latter.

I am studying in the pet medical field, I am studying companion animal nutrition, being taught by many vets whom have researched this information in their labs for more years than any other and then you are old.

Again, just curious.....what is your career goal? I started school years ago with the goal of becoming a vet....never accomplished it but could kick myself now for not at least going to be a vet tech. I do love my current job but it has nothing to do with animals and I think I would enjoy it much more if it did. Best of luck with whatever you goal is.

AngelZoo

· #44 · Dec 15, 2003

Opokki: Yeah I know I'm not able to be around much anymore with the time this job and all my pets take up, I am a Pet Nurse and a CSC, which is the equivilant of being a Vet Tech and a Receptionist when needs be. My ultimate goal, which will take years is to become basically a zoologist (you should at least know that by now) but I am also going after my certification in companion animal nutrition, behavoir and training. All very exciting for me! We had an x-mas party tonight and I had the liberty of meeting several other vets and I got the chance to speak with them about their thoughts on several things, I don't often get to do that in such a formal setting.
It's never too late to go back to school, or to catch up on things for at least your personal amusement. I get so bored if I feel I have not accomplished something each day, I must be prosperous, and working in a field I love keeps me well informed, I learn something new every day

The list came from years of proven research by many scientists and vets. Also list written down for me and my pets as recommened diets from the several vets I have visited over time. I in turn studied these results for years, and also spoke person to person with many individual vets and vet specialists. Together I have gathered information from what they say to be proper diets, and simply made a bigger list. Sure, the Whole Dog Journal once said that Bil-Jac is one of the best dog kibbles. Well sure it is! When you are comparing commercial brands, but honestly, most of those people, and not so ashtonishingly many vets do not even know foods like Felidae exist. So by giving them information and names on brand foods I have found they take it upon themselves to analyze it, and kind of pick it apart so to speak.
So, by their findings, their guidelines, I have simply typed up a list of food brands in notepad for free distrubution as a start point reference.

The order they reside in is very simple, yet quiet complex. By this I mean that anyone can take a look at the ingredients of this food, and put them in order by how much meat content the food has that is the most important factor in a cats diet, how much and of what quality meat is in it's diet. For the most part, my findings have been, that for vets who don't specifically suggest foods like Solid Gold or Blue is simply because they have no idea they exist! It's not that they think they are bad, or that other foods are better for them.

I've printed out many lists for clients whom come in to use it as a reference and bring it to their local vet. The cat food list isn't the only one there is, this is an ongoing project for many species.
A person can agree, and not agree with like minded profesionals and myself, and that's perfectly fine either way.
But there is no reason to call out one exact person because something unrelated has rubbed you the wrong way. Instead of waisting my time on ears which are not listening, then learn this stuff yourself, in your own way (no this does not mean you opokki dear).

A person asks what foods are good, I offer them a very large selection, but for any pet, and something every person should know, the final say on the diet is typically best decided by your educated vet, not only because one is educated, but because they are familure with your particular pets medical history. This is a process I have to and do obide by at my work every day.

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opokki

· #45 · Dec 15, 2003

AngelZoo said:
Opokki: My ultimate goal, which will take years is to become basically a zoologist (you should at least know that by now)

LOL. Yes, now I remember.

It's never too late to go back to school, or to catch up on things for at least your personal amusement.

I agree and I have often considered it but for now I keep myself occupied reading books. Been thinking of getting into dog training. If nothing else, I will at least have a small cat or cat & dog rescue sometime in the future.

Sure, the Whole Dog Journal once said that Bil-Jac is one of the best dog kibbles. Well sure it is! When you are comparing commercial brands, but honestly, most of those people, and not so ashtonishingly many vets do not even know foods like Felidae exist.

I think the WDJ has changed since then. They now have some nice guidelines for choosing a quality food and seem to be aware that better quality foods exist. Back when the Whole Cat Journal did a top foods list, Felidae was on the list along with several other brands I had never even heard of at that time. It was a nice starting point for me since I had no clue what to look for in a food.

catman

· #46 · Dec 15, 2003

AngelZoo said:
Please stop bashing me and the list.

no one is bashing you here. people are only having a discussion about a complicated and contradictory topic. no one said Angel Zoo's list.

please stop with the snide remarks.

on more than one occasion you have been rude to other members of this site because their beliefs are different than yours. please take your own advice.

Lilly

· #47 · Dec 15, 2003

I read this entire (long) post this morning! I havent visited it since the begining because it is very confusing, and long, and everyone has such strong opinions on this subject. After reading this morning I do have a couple things to add.

First, I do find Angel Zoo's list helpfull (HELPFULL) in determining a good food to feed to our cats. I think it is great that she takes the time to type this list agian and agian to try to help people learn about good cat foods. All the foods on this list are good foods. However, everyone has to come to their own conclusions about what foods to choose.

Second, as much as we would all love to give our cats the perfect diet, no-one really can say what that is. Vets know alot about animal health (obviously) and if you call 10 different vets you will hear 10 different opinions.

Third, just because one person has had good luck with all wet and another has had good luck with all dry and ect... that does not mean you are going to have good luck with anything other that what you are already feeding your cats.

Fourth, we can only do what we can do. Some people cant afford to buy more expensive foods. (before you say its not more expensive in the long run, I know already) some of our members are still young adults who live with their parents. They probably rely on mom and dad to buy food for the cats. Colledge students, parents, ect. We have to only do what we can afford to do.

Fifth, As long as you try to give your cats the best food you know how, and they are healthy, you are doing what is best for your cats. If they are not healthy ask your vet before anyone else. YOUR vet knows YOUR cat. This is the best source of info for YOUR cat. (if you have worries ask your vet also in addition to doing your own research)

This has gotten quite a bit longer than I intended, however I wanted to say thease things because I was stuggling with this issue a couple weeks ago. I felt guilty because I was feeding my cats store brand. (I have since switched to nutro.) Please dont feel guilty! There are probably millons of cats in this world. most of them get fed store brand food. It is the only food widely avaliable and that most people even know about. mOmst cats get fed this food and most cats are very healthy. They live long lives and are happy.

My cats have eaten Meow mix their entire lives, (Lilly rarely even eats kitten chow because we have older cats who eat it up as soon as we buy it) My cats are very healthy. They have good teeth, very soft and silky coats. They are a good weight, no urinary problems, playfull , ect ect ect.

I do belive in investing in a water fountain...I am sure all our cats have tried to drink driping water from the faucet, tub sink, ect. A water fountain provides a fresh stream of water that cats find irresistable. My cats all love to drink water from the fountain. try www.lovethatcat.com they have a great water fountain that doesnt cost alot. I also saw one at walmart for 25.00

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AngelZoo

· #48 · Dec 15, 2003

Opokki: If your into dog training that's wonderful. I think it's the profession which allows you to form the closest bond with your own animals, and any of the ones you work with. Training is more of a deep passion for me, a wonderfull feeling, and that ties in a lot by learning about behavoir, perhaps in addition to becoming a trainer you could take a college course to get your degree in animal behavior, it would definetly help. The nutrition bit is more of an obession of science, and my geekiness showing through.

A couple books I can recommend to you, if you have not read them already are.

"The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
"Dogspeak" by Bash Dibra

Lilly: Those are all very good points I know several of us have tried to stress here and other places, though it is something people loose hind sight of often. To trust one person or one source souly, and never question, is a blind act of ludacris.

Jeanie

· #49 · Dec 15, 2003

Jeanie said:
To quote Sol: Believe me, it's a whole science.

I couldn't agree more! The more you read, the more you realize that. I feed my cats dry food, with some canned sliced chicken as a treat. My cats also drink a lot of water. The source Opokki provided (written by a vet) says that cats REGULATE their own moisture needs by drinking additional water, if needed. I agree with you completely regarding people's opinions. They vary so much, and everyone is so sure she's right! I would not accept a rated list from anyone other than a veterinary nutritionist--and my guess is that their opinions also vary. re: raw chicken necks? I learned that was a 'no no" when I was a child-from my mother. I can't believe people are actually feeding anything with bones to their cats.

It's nice to see your posts, Sol!

__________________________________________

I would not accept a rated list from anyone other than a veterinary nutritionist--and my guess is that their opinions also vary
_____________________________
Angel, Is this a personal bashing? I assume this is the sentence to which you are referring. Will I be accused of attacking veterinary nutritionists also, then? This post refers to the fact that administration has been searching for reliable and unbiased sources-with the credentials and education necessary to post a list. I have sent Opokki's sources to catman, and he is pleased with them.

You are a cat lover who has worked for a vet for two or three months. That's very nice. But you have never posted a scholarly and unbiased source. That's why I recommend that our members read and discuss what they have read with their vets. I won't post anything about nutrition without a link. The subject is too complex for us to just offer opinion. We are not nutritionists. All credible, scholarly documents offer sources- even if the author himself has a Phd. in the subject. Administration, as I said, has been searching for a scholarly and unbiased list, and thus far has not found what he's looking for.

I will refer you to rules 1b and c.. I do not accept your accusations.

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AngelZoo

· #50 · Dec 15, 2003

Jeanie: Check your pm's.

Edit: I wanted to add that I am not looking to be your local nutritionist, because I can not be, I am not certified and it would be false and not to mention illegal to say that I am one, and to sign information as one.
Which is why I do not.

I'm glad that you are looking for a helpfull credited member, and when you find that person, if they really are any good, and not on a biased stand point by only training under one company then I assure you, their list will look an aweful lot like mine.

I offer my free time (as little as there is) to try and be helpfull, that's all, I don't have to do that you know? But it's because I'm nice, I'm not looking to get anything out of it.

opokki

· #51 · Dec 16, 2003

AngelZoo said:
Opokki: If your into dog training that's wonderful. I think it's the profession which allows you to form the closest bond with your own animals, and any of the ones you work with. Training is more of a deep passion for me, a wonderfull feeling, and that ties in a lot by learning about behavoir, perhaps in addition to becoming a trainer you could take a college course to get your degree in animal behavior, it would definetly help. The nutrition bit is more of an obession of science, and my geekiness showing through.

A couple books I can recommend to you, if you have not read them already are.

"The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
"Dogspeak" by Bash Dibra

Thanks Angelzoo. I've read "The Culture Clash" and thought it was wonderful. I'll have to check out "Dogspeak".

Sol

· #52 · Dec 18, 2003

opokki said:
Sol said:

I've seen what they make wet food of and it's disgusting.

Click to expand...

Have you seen what they make dry food of? I'd imagine (depending on the company) that it could be equally disgusting.
Im not trying to be argumentative but some of the canned foods I've used actually smell good and have ingredients that can be identified just by looking at it. Active Life for instance, the shredded chicken variety is just that....shredded chicken. It actually looked more appealing to me than the can of Hormel canned chicken that I bought for myself.
I agree that some of the canned foods are pretty disgusting. One of the cans I opened once smelled like rotten meat which made me wonder what exactly was in there.
Just my 2cents.

I must say that this myth that dry food causes crystals in the urine is making me tired. It's not the dry food itself. It's the contents. To high Ph-value and too much magnesium causes crystals! High quality cat food (dry or wet) have the proper amounts of magnesium and a good Ph-value in the food.

Click to expand...

I agree.
Here is quote form Small Animal Clinical Nutrition III - Lewis,Morris,Hand:
"When most commercial dry cat fods are eaten, there is greater urinary magnesium concentration and therefore predisptosition to FUS than when canned foods are eaten. This difference is due to the fat, fiber, digestibility and caloric density of the two forms of food, and is not due to differences in their water or dry-matter magnesium contents. A few dry cat foods are as high, or higher, in fat and caloric density, and as low, or lower, in magnesium as any canned food. They therefore contain a low concentration of magnesium/100 kcal ME. These dry diets do not predispose to FUS and are more likely to prevent FUS than are those canned diets that are low in fat, caloric density, and digestibility and high in magnesium, therefore containing a high concentration of magnesium/100 kcal ME."
There are many non-food related issues that can be a factor in the formation of crystals as well but I often see many place the blame directly on food which can be, but is not always, to blame. Obesity or lack of pysical activity, dirty litter boxes can also be factors as they may cause a decrease in urine frequency.

[quote:3hw2vkdn] A lot of meat (more than we know about) is contaminated with salmonella which is quite harmless for a dog but can be deadly for a cat.

I disagree. Contaminated meat is no safer for dogs than it is for cats.

I believe in making the food at home when you know what the contents are. But I belive in cooking the food.

I like this idea as well. Im also (personally) not comfortable with the idea of feeding raw to mine. I have looked into to home-cooking for mine but 1) I have too many pets to do so and 2) I am not confident that I could properly supplement a home-prepared diet.
If I ever decide to do this I will most likely have a veterinary nutritionist create a properly balanced recipe for me based on my cat's individual needs.
When you begin preparing your cat cooked meals I would be interested in hearing your results. Best of luck.

[/quote:3hw2vkdn]

Salmonella is not as harmful for a dog as it is for a cat. A grown and healthy dog that catches salmonella won't get very ill at all. It will get diarrhoea, that's all. Cats however often get very sick with diarrhoea (sometimes with blood), vomiting and they lose a lot of weight.

I will keep you all updated on my "home cooking project" :lol: I don't think I'll start serving home cooked meals for my cats until the spring comes. There's so much to think about.

opokki

· #53 · Dec 19, 2003

Sol said:
A grown and healthy dog that catches salmonella won't get very ill at all. It will get diarrhoea, that's all. Cats however often get very sick with diarrhoea (sometimes with blood), vomiting and they lose a lot of weight.

Quoted from the UCDAVIS Book of Dogs regarding Salmonellosis:
"The most common clinical signs observed in infected dogs include inappetence, lethargy, fever, weight loss, vomiting, colic and a watery to bloody diarrhea. Many strains of Salmonella have the potential for invading deeper tissues of the body and producing serious systematic illness. Clinical signs of severe systemic salmonellosis often are related to the sudden onset of shock or central nervous dysfunction."

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

AngelZoo

· #54 · Dec 19, 2003

I feel that a lot of food reactions can be caused by what you feed, and how you feed it, not so much chicken vrs beef, but what source that meat comes from, how it was treated, what it was treated with so to speak, etc etc.

There are many factors that go into feeding a home diet, and if you are really after the best of the best, it is NOT easy.

I've known several animals to do great on cooked/uncooked diets, and some that are just far to sensitive to some uncooked foods that they can't do it. A lot of things play into this, and I'm sure Sol will their hands full! It's alright if you don't get it exact the first time around, it's a learning process and it allows you to make your animals diet better by learning what was wrong, what they did or didn't like, and if there was any good results.

Personally I have don't both cooked and raw, for all sorts of meat eating companion animals and most of them have done wonderful, including my own. With clients and friends however, there has been a few different stories.

Good luck!

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Sol

· #55 · Dec 23, 2003

opokki said:
Sol said:

A grown and healthy dog that catches salmonella won't get very ill at all. It will get diarrhoea, that's all. Cats however often get very sick with diarrhoea (sometimes with blood), vomiting and they lose a lot of weight.

Click to expand...

Quoted from the UCDAVIS Book of Dogs regarding Salmonellosis:
"The most common clinical signs observed in infected dogs include inappetence, lethargy, fever, weight loss, vomiting, colic and a watery to bloody diarrhea. Many strains of Salmonella have the potential for invading deeper tissues of the body and producing serious systematic illness. Clinical signs of severe systemic salmonellosis often are related to the sudden onset of shock or central nervous dysfunction."

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Well, I'm just telling you what Swedish vets says. Maybe there's different kind of salmonella bacterials and I would guess that some are ressistant to regular antibiotics and probably more dangerous. Swedish dogs rarely get very sick so I guess we have a very "kind" salmonella. Actuarally, Swedish dogs rarely need any medical care when contaminated with salmonella, most often they just have diarrhea for a day or two and salmonella is never thought of. This is what the Swedish vets tells us and I have no reason not to believe them.

ForJazz

· #56 · Jan 3, 2004

I would recommend what your vet recommends. Every cat is different and deserves your attention to their needs as far as diet goes, the same as humans. But one thing all vets seem to say is that all wet=bad. Especially low-grade and mid-grade foods. Feeding your cat Fancy Feast, Nine Lives, Friskies, or Whiskas foods is like feeding them McDonalds. The main ingredient is meat byproducts. IAMS and Science Diet are mid-grade -- the main ingredient in those being chicken meal, which is better than byproducts at least. Foods like Wellness and Wysong, and a few others list real chicken/meat as the main ingredient. Anyway -- wet food is definitely valuable because of the nutrition it provides, and that is the main reason to give it to your cat. But this is totally thrown out the window if you choose a low-grade food. Wet food can lead to dental problems, which lead to many many internal problems in cats. Teeth are so important -- you need to keep a balance on this somehow. And some cats need less maintenance in this area than others -- just like humans. No matter what you choose to feed your cat, all dry, or a mix, you need to pay attention to their teeth and their internal health. No combination of food is foolproof as far as this goes. If you want the perfect combination of nutrition, dental care, and internal care for YOUR cat, look at it as an individual, educate yourself, and talk to your vet.

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